HL Deb 16 October 1989 vol 511 cc649-51

2.57 p.m.

Lord Molloy asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they consider that the North Atlantic Treaty provides an adequate basis for the co-ordination of conventional forces and related industries between Europe and the USA.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Arran)

My Lords, yes. The existing alliance structure, based on the 1949 North Atlantic Treaty, provides effective arrangements for integrating the allies' defence capabilities and for co-ordinating planning of our armament requirements.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that there is a feeling that all the collaboration that is needed is not forthcoming and that we could have enormous advantages from pooling our resources? Does he agree that the two-pillar alliance which involves Europe and North America —the two largest advanced industrial economies in the world —could make great progress? Does he therefore agree that, with the idea of the two-pillar creation alliance, NATO must become a collective force rather than a collection of forces?

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, I believe that it is felt that NATO is becoming more of a collective force. However, the existing treaty of 1949 is still considered a sound basis for ensuring that all allies share the roles, the risks and the responsibilities of defence.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lord, does the noble Lord agree that the Harmel guidelines of 1967 gave objectives and a new confidence to NATO which lasted for about 20 years? Given the immense changes that are taking place in Europe, is there not a case for reconsidering the Harmel objectives to see whether any amendment or new objectives are needed to meet the changes that I have described?

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, nothing in this world is totally perfect and new ideas and new plans are always being co-ordinated within the structure of NATO to see that there is a collective force to hand. I mention in particular the independent European programme group, of which the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition is I am sure aware, whose aims are to make more effective use of funds for research and development, to increase the standardisation and inter-operability of equipment and to maintain a healthy defence industrial base in Europe.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, further to the question put by the noble Lord, does the Minister not agree that at the moment the eyeball to eyeball confrontation of NATO and the Warsaw Pact corresponds less and less to political realities as they are developing in Europe? Is he aware that it is now 12 years since the Harmel Report and surely the time has come for NATO to have a new review of its long-term aims?

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, as I said before, NATO is always reviewing its long-term aims. In particular I should mention the Western European Union, which provides an excellent forum for discussion of wider issues of security policy.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, the Minister referred to what transpired in 1949. Is he aware that a year later the North Atlantic Council criticised the apparent inefficiency of those agreements and advocated the two-pillar arrangement which I have described? In short, what was being advanced as a good case in 1949 was condemned by the North Atlantic Council in 1950. Furthermore, does the Minister not agree that if we could have more unity in NATO that would paradoxically help Mr. Gorbachev, who is constantly criticised by the severe hardliners in the Politburo who say that they cannot trust NATO because its members work independently? With a cohesive force we could increase our efficiency and at the same time encourage Mr. Gorbachev towards an ultimate reduction in conventional arms.

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, I must hold absolutely firm on this point. We consider that since 1949 the treaty has held good. As regards the unity of NATO, the NATO Conference of National Armaments Directors, the CNAD, of which I am sure the noble Lord is aware, allows the exchange of information necessary to identify and undertake collaborative programmes and research initiatives.