War Widows: Pensions and Allowances (Hansard, 30 November 1989)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (The Earl of Arran)
My Lords, the total of pension and allowances received by a war widow depends upon the circumstances of each case. However the main difference between the widows of those killed in service in 1972, and in 1974, is that only the latter are assured of receiving a pension under the Ministry of Defence occupational scheme. All war widows receive a pension under the war pensions scheme administered by the Department of Social Security.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that carefully drafted reply. How does my noble friend justify, if he does justify it, the substantial discrimination overall between the treatment of the pre and post 1974 war widows?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, the Government have always recognised and continue to recognise the special position of those whose husbands died in defence of freedom. Perhaps I may repeat very clearly that that is why the pensions paid to war widows under the DSS scheme and the extra allowances are much more generous than the state pension for other widows. They are between 30 per cent. and 72 per cent. higher according to age and, I repeat, all payments are tax free. Furthermore, about 75 per cent. of war widows of retirement age also receive a state retirement pension as a result of contributions made during their own employment. I believe that that is very generous and substantiates the preferential treatment given in this case.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, in view of the continuing failure of every government to put right this injustice could Parliament —which I hope is still the supreme authority in this country—have an opportunity for a free vote on the matter? I believe that that would recognise public concern about this gross injustice.

Noble Lords
Hear, hear!

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, any form of free vote would have to be arranged through the usual channels.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is not only the widows of those killed in the war but also those of servicemen who died after the war who are dealt with differently depending upon the date on which their husbands retired? While I do not wish to divert attention from the issue before your Lordships' House now, will he please remember that that is a linked and equally important issue?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, perhaps I may point out to my noble friend that the war pensions scheme is administered by the Department of Social Security. It is not confined to members of the Armed Forces and their dependants. It provides pensions and other special payments to anyone suffering disabilities or to the dependants of anyone who has died as a result of war injuries or, in the case of the Armed Forces, from any cause attributable to service in the forces whether or not in time of war.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, does the noble Earl consider that his statement in reply to the previous question that any form of free vote would have to be arranged through the usual channels is almost equivalent to saying that any form of democracy would have to be arranged through the Central Committee of the Communist Party?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I do not necessarily accept that argument.

§ Lord Carver
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that he has not answered the question of the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter? Is he aware that there is very strong feeling within the Armed Forces that the injustices caused by this anomaly, whereby some war widows receive up to three times the amount paid to some of the older war widows who are in exactly the same circumstances, must be put right and bureaucratic excuses must not be put forward instead?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I understand the point which has been made by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Carver. I am aware of the public feeling on this special case. However, perhaps I may give a further example. A war widow who receives age allowance and the full rate of retirement pension could receive up to £115 a week, which in April of next year will rise to £127, whereas the normal state widow's pension is £43.60, rising to £46.90 in April next year.

§ Lord Mulley
My Lords, while we understand that there is a distinction because contributions from pay since 1974 have been taken into account, does the Minister appreciate that every time there is a percentage increase the gap between pre and post 1974 pensions increases? While as a Minister in the Department of Defence he is properly defending his department's responsibilities, does he not realise that he is answering a Question which was addressed to Her Majesty's Government? Will he not therefore take steps to see that the social security aspects of the pre 1974 pensions are also taken into account? It is no good giving the hypothetical case of someone who receives the maximum because she worked every day after her husband died and therefore receives an old age pension; it is a question of comparing one war widow's pension with another. Why does he seek to escape that comparison?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I do not seek to escape that comparision. The Government's record as regards improvements on the DSS side is second to none.

§ Lord Irving of Dartford
My Lords, if the noble Earl cannot accept the very powerful arguments put forward by my noble friend Lady Jeger, will he consider, in view of the very strong feeling on the issue, that there should at least be a review to establish the true circumstances in which those elderly widows are living at the moment?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I repeat that I am aware of the feelings in your Lordships' House. In answer to a question from the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, on the last occasion on which this issue was raised, I assured him that I would report the feelings of the House to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. I can always say that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State takes very due notice of what your Lordships say.

§ The Earl of Kimberley
My Lords, does the Minister agree that as most of the widows from the 1939–45 war are now probably aged 75 or more, and are becoming fewer and fewer in number, it would not cost that much money to bring their pensions up to 1974 standards?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, if my noble friend is referring to the occupational pension scheme administered under the Ministry of Defence, the argument in that case is that it would cost £200 million to accommodate the war widows. One could not possibly leave out the war disabled, and that would cost a further £400 million, making £600 million in all. Your Lordships are very well aware of the knock-on effect that that would probably have in other public service sectors.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, would the Minister be prepared yet again to talk the matter over with the Royal British Legion's executive and the women's section of the Royal British Legion which represents all widows from all wars? I admit that they take the simple view that no matter in which war their husbands were slain their treatment by the nation ought to be adequate and equal.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, fully appreciates, as I pointed out on the last occasion, that we are always in touch with the Royal British Legion and other similar bodies to review pensions on an annual basis.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that he has not attempted to answer the basic question as to the justification for discriminating between pre and post 1973 pensions simply on the basis of the date of war widowhood? Does he recognise that until he does so he will leave many people, on all sides of this House and outside, deeply depressed at the insensitivity of Her Majesty's Government?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I particularly wish to point out to my noble friend that Her Majesty's Government, on this particular occasion, are not insensitive to the special case of war widows. My noble friend knows very well the problems in trying to accommodate the pre-1973 pensions as regards the occupational pension scheme and the dangerous implications that are involved.

§ Lord Callaghan of Cardiff
My Lords, perhaps I may thank the Minister for the letter which he sent to me in reply to mine. His letter indicates that the improvements that are to be made in April 1990 will: further increase the very preferential position of the more elderly war widows compared with those who only receive pension under the basic state scheme". Am I correct in assuming that those improvements will further increase the anomalies that have already arisen between pre 1972 and post 1972? Will he take it from me that if the position of war widows is better than that of ordinary widows it is not because of Government action; it is because Parliament from time to time has taken the bit between its teeth and insisted on it?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Callaghan, is quite right. Parliament has from time to time taken the bit between its teeth. His party has done something to that effect. It introduced the 50 per cent. tax allowance, and the Conservative Party made it 100 per cent. At all times, particularly on the DSS side, we are steadily trying to improve the lot of war widows.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that even setting aside the system of allowances detailed by him, there is discrimination between pre-1973 war widows and post-1973 war widows? Does he also agree that, if the difficulty is one of precedent and perhaps opening the floodgates for other groups of people, it must be possible to have a proper, clear definition of a war widow and that the appeal that has been made from all sides of the House should refer exclusively to war widows?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I think that my noble friend is trying to suggest that the case for war widows under the Ministry of Defence occupational scheme could be ring-fenced and therefore that it would cost only £200 million. It is unlikely that it 519 would stop there. Many people, including even the war disabled themselves, have suggested that they would naturally lay claim to a further £400 million. There would therefore be great difficulty in ring-fencing to £200 million.

§ Lord Carver
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that none of the organisations representing the war disabled has raised any objections whatever to war widows being regarded as a special case?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I am aware that many people feel that war widows should be a special case. I hope that the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Carver, recognised that when he was a service chief. But, in spite of the argument for a special case, I have tried to do my best to point out where the problems are and what they are.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that German war widows receive almost double the amount of pension that ours do, together with various other benefits? If the West German Government can do that without fear of precendent, ring fences and the rest, why cannot the British Government?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I can answer the noble Lord on that point very simply. Valid comparisons are difficult to make. It is not simply a matter of converting pension rates. Availability of schemes differs. Conditions of entitlement, of allowances and use of means testing are relevant factors. Social and health service provisions and costs of living must also be considered. It is therefore difficult to make a comparison on a like-for-like basis.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that today is the day of our patron saint, St. Andrew, who was a fisherman? Would it not be nice if there were equal loaves and fishes for people who have suffered longer than others?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, my noble friend always adds a nice, attractive touch; but I think that even she understands the problems of all governments on this matter.

§ Lord Irving of Dartford
My Lords, in calculating the £200 million, has the noble Earl taken into account the fact that we are spending £25 million less under this heading than we were in 1979, and that these ladies are dying off at the rate of 3,000 a year, so that we are certainly reducing the costs?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, it is considered that at the turn of the century there will still be approximately 30,000 war widows remaining. Furthermore, I can tell the noble Lord that, compared with 1978–79, £83 million extra was spent on war widows in 1988–89.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, is not this Question turning into a debate? Should we not move to the next business?