HL Deb 07 November 1989 vol 512 cc630-7

7.40 p.m.

Lord Skelmersdale rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 25th July be approved.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this draft order makes provision for the creation of a Youth Council for Northern Ireland with advisory functions and executive powers. It will replace the existing Youth Committee and, together with the existing Youth Forum and Standing Conference of Youth Organisations, representing the interests of young people and major voluntary youth organisations in Northern Ireland, will combine to provide an effective top tier of management for the youth service.

The decision to create a Youth Council with these functions was one of a package of measures announced by government in response to a major review of the youth service, which was launched in 1986. The review was initiated by the Department of Education at the request of the youth service community, whose lobbying had encouraged the Education Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly to report on some aspects of the service. During the extensive consultative stage of the review, there was a wide degree of support from both statutory and voluntary youth organisations, among other issues, that a restructured upper tier of the service offered the most effective means by which the service could be developed through the 1990s and beyond. The draft order seeks to create that structure.

The new Youth Council will benefit greatly from the important contribution made by the Youth Committee, whose term of office expired on 30th June 1989. I should like to take this opportunity to pay my own tribute to the valuable service which the chairmen and members of that committee have given over the years and in particular to their keen interest in the welfare of young people.

The House may find it helpful if I briefly outline the structure and extent of the youth service and the respective roles which the Youth Council and government will play in the future.

The youth service in Northern Ireland is composed of a statutory and voluntary sector. The statutory sector is under the control of education and library boards and consists of some 190 youth clubs and 21 residential centres. The main roots of the youth service are, however, firmly embedded in the voluntary sector, which comprises over 2,000 youth units attracting a membership in the order of 150,000 young people. These are supported by about 275 full-time youth workers and about 2,000 part-time paid workers and 12,000 volunteers. In financial terms the overall cost of support given by government to the youth service amounted, in the last financial year, to over £10 million.

Within the revised structure the Department of Education will retain overall responsibility for youth service policy in Northern Ireland. It will make an annual grant to the Youth Council and will make grants available to voluntary organisations for capital provision and persons undertaking approved courses of training or retraining. The Youth Council will take on the advisory and co-ordinating roles of the existing Youth Committee and will assume, from the department, responsibility for the payment of grants to various youth headquarter bodies. As part of its managerial role it will promote and encourage cross-community activity within the new curriculum of the youth service and will take the lead in encouraging enterprise, self-help and self-determination among young people.

While I do not think it would be very profitable to go through the articles one by one I should like to highlight a change —if I did not, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, would —which has been made to Article 5 of the proposal, as a result of recommendations from interested bodies thrown up during the consultation period.

Article 5 of the proposal contemplated that the net approved expenditure of the Youth Council would be met by the department after it had been incurred. A number of respondents to the published proposal took the view that this level of financial control could serve to limit the council's effectiveness of action. The department has accepted the representations and Article 5 of the draft order confers on the Youth Council grant-in-aid status. This will enable it to determine its own financial priorities within a total annual grant and to carry forward to the following financial year, within limits, unexpended balances of grant and funds attracted from other sources.

The provision of a Youth Council with its own secretariat marks a significant step forward in the central management of the youth service in Northern Ireland and I commend the draft order to the House. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 25th July be approved. —(Lord Skelmersdale.)

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I thank the Minister for explaining the provisions of this order. Although we welcome the order, I propose to spend a little time in commenting on some of its provisions. I do so partly in order to obtain clarification and information, and partly in order to illustrate once again the inadequacy of the Order in Council procedure.

This order, we submit, is long overdue. Can the Minister explain why it was not introduced well before last June when the advisory committee for Northern Ireland was wound up? The Province has been without a central youth forum for almost five months. Why should that be so? Is that fair to the youth organisations in Northern Ireland?

The Minister has not given the House an indication of when this order will be implemented. Can he tell the House when the Youth Council will be set up and when the members will be appointed? Can he give us an indication of the approximate date when the council will hold its first meeting? Are we thinking of next January, next March or next June on the anniversary of the winding up of the Youth Committee? There is considerable unease in Northern Ireland that they have been left without a central youth forum for five months and even now they do not know when the Youth Council will be operational.

I turn to the provisions of the order. We are pleased on this side of the House to agree and to go along with the functions which are to be vested in the council. We note that it will not be a purely advisory body. We welcome in particular a duty to encourage cross-community activity by the youth services in Northern Ireland.

Having said that, there are a number of puzzling features about this order. For example, I am puzzled that the Youth Council may only receive donations with the approval of the department. That is an odd state of affairs. If the council is offered a donation —perhaps 1,000 or even £1,000 —free of conditions, why can that not be accepted without first having to obtain the prior approval of the Department of Education? It seems to me to be a pretty absurd requirement. If the donation were made subject to conditions there might be a case for obtaining approval; but the order makes clear that the consent of the department must be obtained before the council can accept a donation.

If this order had been introduced as a Bill, we would have tested the wording of, for example, Articles 4(3)(b) and 4(3)(c). It seems to me to have been too narrowly drawn. Thus, we would have attempted to insert the word "lectures" or the words "fund raising activities" in Article 4(3)(b).

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I do not want to interrupt the noble Lord, but did he say "lecherous"?

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I said "lectures". I am not lecturing the House on that. Again, we would have attempted to insert the word "film" in Article 4(3)(c). These are small points but they are matters that we could have tested had this order been subject to a Bill procedure.

Turning to the constitution of the council which is to be found in the schedule, I cannot help observing that the duration in office of the chairman and vice-chairman is not specified. Why is that? Why should it not be specified? Will the Minister help us and the people of Northern Ireland by telling the House for how long they are to hold office? These are pretty straightforward questions. Are they to hold office for three, four, five or 10 years or otherwise? I would not expect this point to be covered in the order, but it is something on which we could seek guidance in Committee. Can the Minister tell us what salaries will be paid to the chairman and vice-chairman respectively?

I turn to the membership of the council. There is nothing in the order about the total membership. Can the Minister tell the House what it will be? We are also particularly interested to learn what proportion of the total membership will be drawn from the district councils, the education and library boards and from the voluntary sectors respectively. Is it envisaged that at least one-half of the membership will be drawn from the voluntary sector? Would that be a reasonable assumption to make? We would welcome guidance on the membership and the sectors from which it is to be drawn.

I very much welcome what the Minister had to say about Article 5. Nevertheless, we on this side of the House are still uneasy about the relationship between the Youth Council, the Department of Education and the Civil Service head of that department as set out in the order. There is no reference in the order to the poor Minister; the relationship is between the department and the Civil Service head of that department.

I have gone very quickly through the order and I cannot help but observe that at least the following powers have been reserved to the department or the head of the department. There is the right to veto a candidate on the shortlist for the key post of chief officer of the council. Is it fair to the council that the department should have the right to veto a candidate for the shortlist regarding this, key post? Again, I cannot help but observe that the department has reserved to itself the right to make directions relating to the employment of staff by the council. Will there be a direction about the appointment of the doorman or the secretaries? How wide will this reservation be and why should it be necessary?

The department has even reserved to itself the right to make directions governing the appointment of a committee. I have already noted that this council cannot accept a donation without the approval of the department. These powers limit considerably the powers of the council. It appears to me that it will be no more than a proxy for the Department of Education or the head of that department. If we were in Committee we would have pressed the department jolly hard to justify each one of these limitations but we are deprived of that opportunity.

If the council is to discharge its duty of assisting in the co-ordination and efficient use of the resources of the youth services which is placed on it by Article 4, should not all applications to the department by voluntary organisations for financial support be approved by the council? If not, why should they not be approved by this body if it is to play an effective role in giving guidance and a steer to the youth services in Northern Ireland?

I appreciate that Article 7(3) provides that in certain cases the department will "refer" —that is the key word —an application to the council. Can the Minister tell us what is meant by "refer"? Is the application referred for information or approval? What does the department mean by the use of that word? Can the Minister tell the House what will be the criteria for deciding which applications are to be referred to the council?

We on these Benches believe it is important that the relationship between the council and the department should be right. It seems to us that the department has not been given a sufficient degree of independence. That being so, we are concerned that the order does not contain machinery for resolving any dispute which may emerge between the council on the one hand and the department or the Civil Service head of it, on the other.

It has always been my experience when drawing up a constitution for a body which stands in the relationship of dependency to another body, that it is always wise to provide within the constitution a machinery for resolving disputes between the two bodies. On that matter the order is silent. We believe that time may well show that omission to be a flaw in the document which depends entirely on trust. Of course we want trust and goodwill, but from time to time there will be disputes. In that event you normally look to the constitution to see how to resolve it. As I have said, that is a flaw in the document.

What is sad about this order which invests so much in the youth service of Northern Ireland is that there is no opportunity of correcting that flaw in this House.

I now refer to Article 8 which empowers the department to recover a charge from the proceeds of the sale of land or a building in respect of which the department has given financial assistance to the organisation which owns the land or property and which is now selling. We accept that there is full justification for the principle of Article 8. As we all know, there are considerable calls on Northern Ireland funds so we believe that the department is perfectly right to impose a charge when land or premises are sold so that it can recover the grant or assistance that was initially made available to the organisation.

The formula is set out in Article 8(3) and it appears to be fair. However there are two questions that I wish to put to the Minister in seeking information. I note that interest is to be paid on the sum to be recovered. But it is not clear to me, unless I have missed a line, from what date the interest is to be calculated. If it is to run from the date when the premises are sold, that would be fair. If, however, it is to run from the date when the grant was originally made, that would be unfair. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten us.

The formula refers to the current value of the land or building. That will generally be the amount it might be expected to realise if sold on the open market. That is fair enough. But if the building or the land is no longer required by the voluntary organisation which owns it, will the noble Lord confirm that it can be transferred by that organisation to another youth organisation at a price below current market value? I ask that question because some of us in England and Wales have spent a good deal of time seeking (but unsuccessfully) to persuade the Charity Commission to allow property of a charity to be transferred to another charity at a price below market value. That is our experience. I wonder what would be the position in Northern Ireland. It is not clear to me from the order.

I should be grateful if the Minister can reply to my questions, and if not tonight then by letter. We on these Benches sincerely hope that the order will be of immense value to the young people of Northern Ireland. I hope that the noble Lord can tell us this evening that it will be speedily implemented.

8 p.m.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the noble Lord's list of questions took me a little by surprise in their detail. I am perfectly happy to be called to account for any order I put before the House. However, the noble Lord will remember that I said only the other day that the Government as a whole would welcome advice on a better system than the Order in Council route of legislating for Northern Ireland. I do not believe there is any dispute between us on that. As much as the noble Lord dislikes it, I have yet to see any concrete proposals from him on what route we could take.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, the noble Lord misunderstands the position. It is not just the case that a Northern Ireland spokesman on these Benches is desperately unhappy about the procedure. There is a consensus that the procedure is totally inadequate. I took the course this evening of going through the order in some detail merely to reinforce the point that the procedure is inadequate. For as long as we do not have devolved government in Northern Ireland I suggest that legislation should proceed by way of a Bill and not by Order in Council.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I take the point. The noble Lord represents a widely held view from which I do not totally dissociate myself, as I have made clear on several occasions. However, the fact remains that, in this uncertain world in Northern Ireland, legislation has to be arrived at by one route or another. To have no legislation at all —I do not think that even in his most pessimistic mood the noble Lord would suggest that —would cause a political vacuum, which is what we are all trying to avoid.

The noble Lord asked about the reason for delay. The delay was due to the alteration of the draft Order in Council to give the Youth Council grant-in-aid status. The order will become operative one month from Royal Assent, which I would anticipate means around 19th January 1990. The Youth Council itself will be constituted by mid-January. The first meeting is expected at the end of January or early in February.

The noble Lord asked who will be meeting at that time. Members will be appointed according to their individual contribution to the council. It is not intended that they shall be representative of any sectors. Nonetheless, most sectors will be covered by the appointments. What we are interested in is the appointment of people rather than the appointment of representatives. We want whoever is there to do a good job. Their term of office will be for four years. But we have to roll this on a little or the whole council will come up for renewal at the same date, which is not very sensible. Therefore it is anticipated that half the members will be appointed for two years and the other half for four years. It will have a chairman and a vice chairman who will be paid £3,600 and £2,300 respectively.

The noble Lord asked more detailed questions about the individual articles. The Youth Council will assume advisory functions and in addition will be given executive powers under which it will assess and pay block grants to voluntary headquarters organisations. The powers being retained by the department, about which the noble Lord slightly complained, are exactly the same as those which apply in relation to its other educational responsibilities. Therefore there is consistency in this matter.

The noble Lord mentioned departmental approval, especially with regard to appointments. The departmental approval is required merely for the chief executive.

Lord Prys-Davies

No, my Lords. I understand from the order that the Youth Council will require the approval of the department for its scheme for appointing staff generally.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I shall come back to that point in a moment. As I understand the position, departmental approval is required only to guard against the appointment of an unqualified or unfit person. That refers particularly to the chief executive. It would be quite wrong to have such persons in the two positions which I have just mentioned.

The noble Lord will have noticed Article 7(4), which explains that the council will make recommendations to the department on the applications. The department will consider these recommendations before deciding on those applications. The noble Lord talked about paragraph (5) of Article 8. If he casts his eye a little further, he will discover that paragraph (8) defines the term "relevant date" for the purpose of paragraph (5) as the date of disposal of the land or building where this is done prior to the department serving notice on the voluntary organisation of the determination of the date, and in any other case, the date determined by the department.

I think that what I have said covers at least some of the points made by the noble Lord. I shall look carefully at the Official Report because he produced quite a phalanx of questions for me to answer. I assure the noble Lord that if I find any inaccuracies in my answers, or any questions which I have left unanswered, I shall be delighted to put the matter right.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Viscount Long

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 8.30 p.m.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 8.11 to 8.30 p.m.]