AS AN AMENDMENT TO COMMONS AMENDMENT No. 103 (Hansard, 7 November 1989)

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 103A, and it may be for the convenience of the House if I speak also to Amendment No. 103B. They are essentially the same point.
Yet again we have in the Bill powers granted to the Secretary of State to make amendments to enactments. I am not so worried about what is marked as subsection (7) of the amendment; I am more worried about subsection (2) and the power to make provisions in consequence of changes affecting accountancy bodies.
It seems to me reasonable that the Secretary of State should have the power to make consequential amendments, although, together with the noble Lord, Lord Rippon of Hexham, I believe that enactments, primary legislation, should not be amended by order. Nevertheless, if we accept that 642 basic principle—which I do with great reluctance—it seems reasonable that it should be accepted in this case.
What worries me is that the Secretary of State may, under the proposed Commons amendment, make such amendments of enactments as appear to him to be necessary or expedient in consequence of any change of name, merger or transfer of engagements". I do not see why, just because one body merges with another body, the Secretary of State should have unlimited powers to make any amendments of enactments as appear to him to be expedient. I find that a very curious expression. Yet again, I am trying to assert the supremacy of Parliament rather than the supremacy of the Executive. I beg to move.

§ Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran
My Lords, once again we are dealing with enactments by regulations. I suppose that one must still make the statutory objection from these Benches to the wide powers given to the Secretary of State to deal with legislation, subject once again to the negative resolution procedure. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Rippon, is not in his place. He would strongly support what I am saying. However there is very little we can do except to make the objection. I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Williams.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I have already deployed the arguments as to why we do not agree with the concern expressed by noble Lords on this matter. I do not intend to repeat those arguments in detail. Perhaps I may address my reply to Amendment No. 103B, to which the noble Lord referred.
This amendment concerns the regulation-making power in the second new clause. Would the positive resolution procedure be appropriate there, the noble Lord wondered. The power in this new clause is a power to make by regulations such amendments of enactments as appear to the Secretary of State to be necessary or expedient in consequence of a change of name, merger or transfer of engagements affecting accountancy bodies recognised under statutes. Perhaps I may take a hypothetical example. The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales and the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy are both bodies recognised under statute. Suppose they were to decide to merge. There have in fact been suggestions to this effect. If that were to happen, this power would enable the Secretary of State to make amendments replacing the references to the old bodies with references to the new body. I am sure that the noble Lord would accept that as being a reasonable and sensible way of proceeding. I hope that by expressing that as an example, he will be persuaded not to press his amendments.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
No, my Lords, I am afraid that the noble Lord exactly demonstrates my point. These should not be negative procedures but affirmative procedures. In this House of Parliament we should have a chance to discuss these matters. I am sorry, I must press the amendment.

DIVISION NO. 4
CONTENTS
Airedale, L.	Serota, B.
Bonham-Carter, L.	Shepherd, L.
David, B.	Strabolgi, L.
Hacking, L.	Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Jenkins of Putney, L.	Taylor of Gryfe, L.
Lloyd of Kilgerran, L.	Wedderburn of Charlton, L. [Teller.]
Monson, L.
Peston, L.	White, B.
Pitt of Hampstead, L.	Williams of Elvel, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L. [Teller.]	Winchilsea and Nottingham, E.
Seear, B.	Winstanley, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Alport, L.	Kimball, L.
Arran, E.	Lindsey and Abingdon, E.
Barber, L.	Long, V.
Belstead, L.	Lucas of Chilworth, L.
Blake, L.	Lyell, L.
Borthwick, L.	McColl of Dulwich, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.	Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Brentford, V.	Macleod of Borve, B.
Brougham and Vaux, L.	Masham of Ilton, B.
Butterfield, L.	Morris, L.
Butterworth, L.	Mottistone, L.
Caithness, E.	Mountevans, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.	Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Carnock, L.	Oxfuird, V.
Cork and Orrery, E.	Polwarth, L.
Crathorne, L.	Reay, L. [Teller.]
Davidson, V. [Teller.]	Rochdale, V.
Dundee, E.	Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.	Sharples, B.
Ferrers, E.	Skelmersdale, L.
Fortescue, E.	Southborough, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.	Stanley of Alderley, L.
Gisborough, L.	Stodart of Leaston, L.
Gray of Contin, L.	Strange, B.
Grimston of Westbury, L.	Strathcarron, L.
Haig, E.	Strathclyde, L.
Hardinge of Penshurst, L.	Strathmore and Kinghorne, E.
Harlech, L.
Harvington, L.	Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Henley, L.	Torrington, V.
Hives, L.	Tranmire, L.
Home of the Hirsel, L.	Ullswater, V.
Hooper, B.	Vaux of Harrowden, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.	Vinson, L.
Johnston of Rockport, L.	Wynford, L.
Joseph, L.