HL Deb 08 May 1989 vol 507 cc461-3

7.11 p.m.

The Lord Chancellor (Lord Mackay of Clashfern) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 17th April be approved [15th Report from the Joint Committee].

The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper asks the approval of the House for the making of an order under the Legal Aid Act 1988. On 20th March this year your Lordships approved an order under the act conferring certain functions on the new Legal Aid Board. That order formed part of a package of instruments implementing the Act and effecting the transfer of the adminsitration of legal aid from the Law Society to the board.

Unfortunately, there was omitted from the order provision intended to confer on the board the function of determining the costs of representation in care proceedings in the magistates' courts and the Crown Court. The purpose of the draft order now before your Lordships is to repair that omission.

I should perhaps explain that the regulations that your Lordships approved have that effect but it is right that the Legal Aid Board should have the necessary functions. That is the reason for the order. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 17th April be approved [15th Report from the Joint Committee.]—(The Lord Chancellor)

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, there is clearly need for provision for costs of representation for the purposes of care proceedings in magistates' courts and in the Crown Court to be made. For that reason we on this side of the House support this repairing of an omission which clearly was an oversight. That can happen in the best of administrations, and in not so good administrations. I am not for a moment indicating any political view on that matter.

The costs that are referred to are to be determined by the Legal Aid Board. The importance of such a provision we discussed when we were considering the Civil Legal Aid (Matrimonial Proceedings) Regulations 1989 when they came before the House in March. During the progress of the Children Bill through the House, the importance of protecting the interest of the child in wardship custody and care proceedings was stressed on several occasions and produced sympathetic reaction from the Government. This order relates only to care proceedings in juvenile courts and the Crown Court. Is there any provision in relation to wardship cases which the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor contemplates?

Lastly, I cannot let this occasion pass without once more returning to my favourite theme of the family court. We regard that as the best means of economy and efficiency. I should be very grateful on behalf of the many noble Lords who are interested in this matter if the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor can give some indication of what progress has been made towards the setting up of a family court.

The Lord Chancellor

My Lords, as the noble and learned Lord has said, this provision deals with the determination in relation to legal aid costs of the juvenile court and the Crown Court. With regard to what the noble and learned Lord referred to as a family court, he knows probably better than I that what is covered by that phrase depends a great deal upon who is using it. Different people have different ideas about it. However, in the Children Bill we have taken a very significant step in improving the arrangements for dealing with children's cases. The Bill contains provisions under which applications for care orders can be taken at the magistrates' court level, the county court level, or the High Court level.

I intimated in the course of the Children Bill how Her Honour Judge Joyanne Bracewell is assisting the president in making the necessary arrangements to facilitate this procedure. I believe that if these arrangements are successful, the result will be a significant improvement in the way children's cases are dealt with by the court, and a model—if successful—for continuing such arrangements in other types of proceedings. I also indicated during discussions on the Children Bill that we intended to embark upon an examination on how to further this approach. I hope that in the not too distant future the noble and learned Lord will see gradually emerging a structure based on the three distinct levels but nevertheless unified in relation to the subject matter which will satisfy him as the best possible way of disposing of family proceedings.

Wardship costs are determined in the ordinary way as are civil costs. Therefore no special provision is required. I commend the Motion to the House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.