Nuclear Missiles (Hansard, 3 May 1989)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur)
My Lords, implementation of the INF treaty will result in the withdrawal of missiles carrying approximately 400 United States and 1,700 Soviet warheads. Simultaneously, about 72 Pershing missiles owned by the Federal Republic of Germany will be withdrawn unilaterally. The United States and Soviet Union are also engaged in negotiations aimed at 50 per cent. reductions in their strategic nuclear arsenals, which include missiles. Finally, we hope that the Warsaw Pact will reduce its overwhelming superiority in short-range missiles following NATO's example.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that the answer he has given so far is a remarkable start to the new Gorbachev era, where both NATO and Warsaw Pact countries could share a common goal in reducing all forms of arms, by improving verification, which is vitally important, and by slowly moving to a saner situation where nuclear, chemical and conventional weapons will be gradually reduced in the interests of all mankind over the next decade?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that it is encouraging as far as it goes. Nevertheless, we should not allow ourselves to be lulled into a false sense of security.

The Viscount of Oxfuird
My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the verse from Kipling's The Gods of the Copybook Headings, written by him after the death of his son in the First World War? I quote: When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace. They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease. But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: 'Stick to the Devil you know' ". Surely the message is the same today.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. The message is the same, and I believe he would find similar comfort in the first lines of Kipling's poem If.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, is not the unity of NATO essential at this time? How many of our allies in NATO support the views of the German Chancellor?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, there is considerable support for the position on a number of different issues. On modernisation there is much common ground. We are all agreed on the principle of no third zero. We all agree the need to keep weapons up to date where necessary. In fact, the communique from the nuclear planning group on 19th-20th April affirmed support of the defence ministers for our efforts to meet requirements stemming from Montebello to maintain a credible nuclear deterrent posture.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is not the greatest threat to peace due to the overwhelming Russian preponderance in conventional weapons? Are not Her Majesty's Government right in saying that the first priority must be to reduce that threat?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. That is the key to it all, I suspect, in many senses. But I am sure that my noble friend will not have overlooked the fact that at the same time as the increases on the Soviet conventional side, there have been some staggering increases on the modernisation of the Soviet short-range nuclear forces as well.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he detailed a number of points on which there is general agreement in NATO? However, he omitted the major issue on which Britain is isolated; namely, the desirability of having negotiations to reduce short-range nuclear weapons. Why is Britain holding out against this if it is true, as the noble Lord, Lord Renton, says, that there is a major preponderance in conventional forces on the Soviet and Warsaw Pact side? Why not start now on a negotiation about short-range nuclear weapons related to the success of the conventional arms reduction talks? That is what NATO wants. Why is Britain isolating herself?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I think that the noble Lord will find he is wrong if he believes that we are isolated on this matter. The fact is that if we go down the road, which he advocates, of negotation, we shall find ourselves faced with the possibility of the third zero which NATO is already agreed should not take place.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that if NATO is to work as a team, one sector cannot make a unilateral decision which is against the general desire of the whole team?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend is right. I am sure he is also aware that peace has now been maintained in Europe, which includes Germany, for over 40 years.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, while we are on the subject of Kipling, is my noble friend aware that he also wrote that the Russian is a delightful person until he tucks in his shirt?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am not sure how to respond to that piece of verse. Nevertheless, I find it most interesting.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I think the Minister will agree that I said that absolutely effective enforcement of verification is vital. If we are moving in that direction, why cannot we continue? Why is Britain, with America, the only part of NATO that does not want to go forward except possibly towards the creation of the mutual destruction of all mankind? Why——

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, that is a possibility. We all know that. Every one of us is aware of that. Now there is an opportunity and we have already heard from the Minister the good things that have transpired. Why cannot we now endeavour to continue with these discussions to go even further along the road to peace?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I believe that when the noble Lord reads tomorrow what he has just said he may disagree with it. He talks about verification. Nobody has suggested a satisfactory method of verifying equal ceilings of small mobile nuclear weapons systems which, on the Warsaw Pact side, are capable of firing nuclear, conventional and chemical warheads.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, it is not so important that people disagree with me. What is important is that the majority of NATO people disagree with the noble Lord and his Government. That is what is giving concern also to the British people.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, the fact is that if we were to proceed down the path that the noble Lord advocates we should not be forgiven by anybody for allowing the peace which has existed for 40 years plus to be eroded.