Gringley Detention Centre (Hansard, 3 May 1989)

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, we have no plans at present to reopen the former detention centre at Gringley. It does not offer the kind of accommodation which would be needed to relieve overcrowding at Leeds and Risley.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, I very much regret that since this Question was put down it has become so acutely topical. Is the noble Earl not appalled that conditions among remand prisoners have led to 12 unconvicted men being driven to suicide? Is he able to tell the House what steps are being taken with regard to remand cases to provide adequate staffing, to avoid 20-hour lock-ups, to increase visiting and contact with families, and, in general, to end overcrowding?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, we are of course very concerned about what has happened and is still happening at Risley. At present, the incident is being handled quite properly as an operational matter and it would not be helpful at this stage to comment upon the circumstances surrounding those disturbances. An inquiry will be launched by the prison service and the results of that inquiry will provide more comprehensive information about the incident than we have at the present time. We shall then be in a much better position to decide what action we must take at that point.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, will the noble Earl tell the House how soon the new bail hostels will be available and whether the programme can be speeded up? We understand that a number of people in that prison are on remand and could be in bail hostels.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, as regards the general situation on bail hostels, there are about 98 approved probation-bail hostels in England and Wales, providing about 1,850 places. An extensive development programme is already under way to provide an additional 500 bail places in approved 142 hostels by April 1991. That is the national situation. As regards the expansion around Risley and Armley, about which the noble Baroness asked, a new bail hostel will open in Bangor in the autumn with 12 places, increasing to 20, as part of the expansion scheme. An outline plan for 45 new bail places has been agreed in Greater Manchester. Cheshire is searching for suitable premises. Discussions are also under way on outline proposals for expansion in Merseyside, Lancashire and Staffordshire.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the present Government's building programme for new prisons, new prison places, remand centres, and so on, is the largest prison building programme of this century? Will he give some idea of the number of new places overall that will be provided by it?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, my noble friend is quite correct. The building programme will have provided for 25,000 new places by the mid-1990s. In the past 10 years, prison building redevelopment has risen by 117 per cent. in real terms. That represents £ 1 billion over the next three years.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that this issue was raised last July by my noble friend, Lord Mishcon and myself? Is he also aware that I drew attention to the conditions obtaining in some of the older establishments such as Armley and Risley? Is he further aware that, in the past nine months, there have been five suicides among young people held on remand in Armley gaol and that conditions are still pretty much the same? Does he not understand the necessity for urgent action, and certainly faster action than the Minister responsible for this matter indicated in a radio interview last week?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, improvements have taken place since Her Majesty's Inspectorate visited that establishment at Risley. There are still improvements to be made in the conditions, but however imperfect the conditions may have been and may still be, that is no justification and no excuse for the general disturbance and reckless behaviour of the inmates there.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, the Minister must understand that I was talking about Armley gaol, not Risley.

The Earl Arran
My Lords, that is another question altogether.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords does my noble friend agree that women are equal with men but that they are different? There were no women on the roof at Risley during the present troubles. Would it not be possible for women on remand—there are 110 of them at Risley—to be placed in hostels run perhaps by the Salvation Army and the Church Army as bail hostels? That would give 110 more places at Risley.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, my noble friend is more or less correct. I understand that the number of women at Risley is about 120 at the moment.
143 They are there because the courts decided that they must be held in secure conditions.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, in view of the tragic events surrounding teenage prisoners on remand does the noble Earl agree that teenagers should be remanded into prison only in very exceptional cases? Secondly, can he say whether the Government will seriously consider introducing legal limits on the time that a person can spend on remand?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are doing everything in their power, and will continue to do so, to reduce the number of the prison population in general.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, will the noble Earl answer more specifically the two questions that I put to him?

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, can the noble Earl tell us what is the present state of play on the possible provision of remand accommodation by the private sector?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I am able to tell the noble Lord about the private sector. The Government are examining whether private sector companies could provide improved conditions for remand prisoners at a reasonable cost with all the necessary safeguards. A study by the management consultants Deloitte Haskins and Sells suggests that they can do so. On 1st March my right honourable friend the Home Secretary said that much further work was being done to test this possibility before a decision could be taken.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, do the Government accept that pre-trial delays have a big bearing on the size of the remand population? Can he say what steps are being taken to reduce those delays, which have grown considerably in the past 10 years?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, delays in bringing cases to completion in Her Majesty's courts have been increasing. The Government are anxious that they should be brought under control. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has asked justices and their clerks to give this a very high priority. We are also progressively introducing time-limits in custody cases. They will apply from 1 st June in Lancashire and the rest of the North-Western circuit. The Home Office is carrying out a survey in a sample of courts of the reasons why cases are adjourned. That will give us a firm foundation to decide what action is needed.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, further to the supplementary question asked by my noble kinsman on the Cross-Benches, will my noble friend convey to his relevant colleagues that part of the answer to this problem is the relief of work in the Crown Court by a review of our archaic system of procedure and evidence and the jurisdiction of the Crown Court, as well as the implementation of 144 certain proposals; for instance, those in the Roskill Report on serious fraud?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I must bow to the considerably greater wisdom and learning of my noble and learned friend on this point. I shall indeed convey his point to another place.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, is it not the case that at any rate some if not many of those in prison on remand may be acquitted when their trials take place? Does the noble Earl agree that it is therefore essential to give first priority to the relief of the number of prisoners on remand and perhaps do something about the fact that we now hold the record in Europe for the number of prisoners held in prison per head of population?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, if that is so it is of course regrettable. If that situation is warranted in the magistrates' courts it is because we must take every step to protect the public. I shall convey the point raised by the noble and learned Lord to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, will he kindly answer the question that I put to him regarding Armley gaol in Leeds and the concern there? That in fact is the prime Question on the Order Paper.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, we are building new closed prisons. We have opened two closed prisons in the North of England in the past two years, providing 950 places. In addition, we plan to open a new remand centre near Hull in 1991. We are increasing capacity at existing establishments. Nearly 400 extra places have been provided during the past year. We constantly look at ways of using our existing resources more effectively in order to reduce the burdens where they weigh most heavily.