§ 3.58 p.m.
§ Lord John-Mackie asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether their plans for the future of the Forestry Commission are still the same as those outlined in the last paragraph of the then Secretary of State for Scotland's announcement of 4th November 1984.
§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Sanderson of Bowden)My Lords, in our November 1984 announcement we indicated that the Forestry Commission's disposals programme would be extended to 31st March 1989 and that its main purpose would be the rationalisation of the commission's estate. We are nearly at the end of this period and the programme is now being reviewed by the Government. The House will be informed of the outcome of the review when it has been completed.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, that is a reasonably satisfactory Answer. I ask the noble Lord whether it would not be better now, having achieved a programme of rationalisation as well as the financial one, to put the Forestry Commission on the basis of a phrase contained in the statement as regards the commercial effectiveness of the enterprise. Does the Minister agree that it would be better to leave the Forestry Commission to spend the money that it raises, particularly at this time when we are asking for public forests in urban areas? Would it not be much better to do that rather than to tie it down to a programme of raising so much that I believe it has found things a little hard in the past eight years?
§ Lord Sanderson of BowdenMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I wish to put the disposals policy in perspective. As the noble Lord may know, the size of the forest estate owned by the Forestry Commission is 916,000 hectares, which I venture to say is not a small estate. The amount of plantable land disposed of since the beginning of the proposal for disposals in 1981 is 62,500 hectares, which is quite a small amount in relation to the estate. I understand what the noble Lord says. The Government take seriously the rationalisation of the estate, always remembering that the forestry enterprise is a valuable part of the Forestry Commission's work.
Lord WinstanleyMy Lords, some of us are concerned about access to Forestry Commission land for recreational purposes. Where further Forestry Commission land-holdings are privatised, if that is the correct word, and there has been access to that land in the past, will that access continue? That has been the Government's policy in the past. Can we have an assurance that it will continue to be their policy?
§ Lord Sanderson of BowdenMy Lords, I understand the noble Lord to mean that when disposals take place, access will continue in the future. I cannot give such an assurance. However, we encourage private woodland owners generally— 581 not just those who have bought woodland from the Forestry Commission—to make reasonable provision for public access and enjoyment of their woodlands. Many owners already do so. However, we still have rights of private ownership in this country, and it is not reasonable to require owners to allow unrestricted public access over their property. I can answer the noble Lord by saying that the spirit of what he wishes certainly will be continued, but we have to abide by the laws of this country regarding access.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, the Forestry Commission appears to have conformed to the government directive of nine years ago and, notwithstanding what the noble Lord says, sold a large area of land. How much money has accrued from those sales and where has it gone?
§ Lord Sanderson of BowdenMy Lords, the money has gone into the Consolidated Fund. The figure to the end of March 1988 is £111 million, and it is expected that another £12 million will be added by the end of this month. That is a total of £123 million. I would add, however, that in the same period the Government have purchased 16,000 hectares of land at a value of £7.7 million.
Lord MorrisMy Lords, even if Forestry Commission land to which the public have had access over the years has been sold, surely a right of common will have been established.
§ Lord Sanderson of BowdenMy Lords, so far as I am aware, when disposals of Forestry Commission land take place it is the right of those who buy the land to contain access, if that is the correct word. We cannot do more than encourage woodland owners to allow access to people over that land.
§ Lord John-MackieMy Lords, in his original Answer, the noble Lord said that there would be a review. The period ends in 10 days' time. Will we hear the result before the end of 10 days?
§ Lord Sanderson of BowdenMy Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord that assurance. The review is well under way, and as soon as it is concluded he will be made aware of the result.