Air Transport: EC Council (Hansard, 21 March 1989)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport(Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, there were no air matters on the agenda for the meeting of the European Community Transport Ministers Council held on 14th March. The Italian Transport Minister made a statement about air safety under any other business. I understand however that it is the intention of the presidency to discuss aviation matters at the council to be held on 5th June.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, on 16th February, we were told that the Government would welcome a sense of urgency on the part of the Commission, particularly in the aviation field. Does the Minister recall telling us that at the informal meeting of the transport Ministers on 13th February, no decisions were reached; and today he has told us that at the full meeting on 14th March, aviation matters were not even on the agenda? Does the Minister realise that it seems to most of us that aviation matters are very low priority not only on the part of the Commission but also on the part of the Ministers? Does he propose to do anything about that?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, of course it is for the presidency to draw up the agenda for a formal council, and there is no obligation on its part to agree to substantive discussion on any particular item. We are making progress on aviation matters outside formal council meetings. We are pressing for further liberalisation in aviation matters; and we have sent the Commission a paper setting out our objectives for 1990, a copy of which I have sent to the noble Baroness and I have placed a copy in the Library. As I said, it is our intention to discuss aviation matters at the June council; but the House will appreciate that there are other transport matters which have to be discussed at the Council of Ministers.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, does the Minister realise that while we accept what he said, 574 other transport matters must have a very full share of the agenda? Do our Ministers just sit at these council meetings and do nothing at all when the subject of aviation is continually left out? I am not very amused about this. Does he not realise that the low priority attached to those matters is very serious and reacts unfavourably on the Government?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I dispute with the noble Baroness that the British Government give aviation a low priority. We were at the forefront of negotiating the first stage of the European liberalisation package which was agreed to. One matter which was agreed there was that there should be a second stage in the middle of next year and that proposals should be put forward by the Commission in November. We anxiously await the Commission's proposals; and, as I said, we have made our views known. We would not expect them to be discussed before then. There are other issues which have to be dealt with in the council including issues very important to this country; for example. lorry weights.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that a real sense of urgency is required? He will have seen the report issued in another place by the Select Committee drawing particular attention to the time lag between a decision and implementation in two spheres: first, new runways; and, secondly, the training of air traffic controllers. Does he not agree that unless major decisions are taken very soon, not only in this country but jointly with other countries in Western Europe, there will be a very serious long term problem as regards air space congestion and that that will not hit us for another five or 10 years? However, discussion must now be started on those matters.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, of course I have seen the report on transport by the Select Committee in another place which was issued at 11 o'clock this morning. That contains a large number of recommendations to which I do not intend to try to reply this afternoon, even if that were the appropriate way to reply to a Select Committee report from another place. However, we appreciate that the problem of air space congestion is serious, and that is why we are tackling that as best we can through Eurocontrol and ICAO. However, as I said on previous occasions, it remains the case that we are not fully persuaded that the European Commission has much of a role to play in that.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, does the Minister realise how wonderful it would be if we could hear our Ministers at the Commission saying that we are not getting on fast enough? Can he give us the dates of the June meeting so that we can ask him for that good news?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I gave the date in my original Answer. The meeting is on 4th and 5th June and I understand that the presidency has allocated 5th June for aviation matters.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, the Government have no plans to implement the Easter Act 1928 without the Churches being in agreement. As usual, there is as yet no prospect of a consensus.

§ Lord Airedale
My Lords, I am obliged for that Answer. I am sure that the noble Earl understands that the Act does not say that the Churches must be in agreement but that they must be consulted.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am not quite certain what the question was. If the noble Lord meant to preface his remarks by asking whether I agree, the answer is yes.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, surely the views of the Christian Churches must have compelling authority on the question of the date of the most sacred festival of the Christian year. Cannot the problem set out in the Question be very easily dealt with by merely transferring the May Day holiday to October?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, unusually for my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter he has drawn a red herring across the trail. He is perfectly right that Easter is one of the most solemn periods in the Christian Church and therefore we do not think that we should act in disregard of the views and the practice of important sections of it. Indeed, if we did so we would have the curious situation whereby there would be one Easter Day for the United Kingdom, another for the Western Communion and a third for the Orthodox Church, which does not seem very sensible. The fixing of a May Day bank holiday is another subject altogether.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, it is in the Question.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that people would be able to enjoy better weather for their Easter holiday, generally speaking, in the first half of April than is likely in the last week of March? Is he also aware that, although one accepts the view expressed by my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter about the importance of Easter as a sacred Christian festival, nevertheless, the Christian Churches have disagreed on various matters throughout their history without ceasing to be good Christians?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, there is good, healthy disagreement over most matters, and this happens to be one. With regard to holidays, I should point out that at present Easter falls between 22nd March 576 and 25th April. This year it falls on 26th March, so it is in the earliest part of the slot. If we were to adopt the proposal in the Easter Act, Easter would fall between the first Sunday after the second Saturday in April and that means between 9th April and 15th April. Therefore had we followed the Easter Act this year Easter would have been later.
On the general point as to why there cannot be agreement, some years ago my noble friend Lord Elton (when he occupied the position that I now hold, but with considerably greater distinction than I have been able to achieve) wrote to His Eminence Archbishop Methodios of Thyateira and Great Britain, who in turn wrote to Archbishop Metropolitan Damaskinos of Switzerland, the President of the Secretariat for the Preparation of the great and holy Council of the Orthodox Church, in order to try to find out the position there. The Archbishop wrote: The first Pan-Orthodox Preconciliar Conference, held at Chambésy in 1976 [said that] the Secretariat for the Preparation of the great and holy Council should be asked to convene, as soon as possible, a conference of responsible pastors, canonists, astronomers, historians and sociologists", in order to deal with this problem. The consultation arrived at some conclusions. The conference said that: (a) besides scientific akribeia, the whole problem is a problem of ecclesiological consciousness of one and individible Orthodoxy, the unity of which should in no way be undermined; (b) it requires a proper assessment by the Church in her pastoral responsiblity and in accordance with the needs of her flock; (c) in the present state of Church affairs, the believing God's people have not been prepared, or in any case have not been sufficiently informed, for accepting changes in determining the date of Easter". That is the position as it is with the Orthodox Church.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for answering many more questions than I asked.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am always at liberty to oblige my noble friend.

The Lord Bishop of St. Albans
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Churches are very grateful for, in this instance, the masterly inactivity of the Government in implementing the Easter Act, especially when they can express it with such consummate erudition?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate for saying that there was some masterly erudition. It was not of course from me but from his brother bishops in a different discipline. I can assure him that it is not a question of government inactivity but of the Churches' inactivity.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, does not the noble Earl agree that, even if he cannot stand up to the theologians and cannot face up to the red herring of the May Day holiday, it leaves us with the late spring holiday, which we do not even call the Whitsun holiday now? Can he not do a deal on that? I cannot think that there is any political or theological objection to moving away from the last Monday in May.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I shall try to stand up to the noble Baroness and tell her that I understand that the May Day Bank Holiday is at present being reviewed by the Department of Employment and that the review is nearing completion.

§ Lord Soper
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the Eastern Orthodox Church there has been ecclesiastical glasnost which largely preceded the political glasnost to which so much attention has been directed? Is he also aware that, further to the promise of the Eastern Orthodox Church, as he recorded, to conduct negotiations on these matters, such evidence as now comes regularly through magazines (which hitherto were prohibited or unavailable) is that that process is in line with a programme which is now intended to enable Easter to be at the same time for the Eastern Orthodox Church as for the Anglican Church in these islands?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I was not aware of that and I am grateful to the noble Lord for informing us.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, why do the Government consider it necessary to get the agreement of the whole of Christendom to a fixed Easter? Surely the important thing is to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. When it is celebrated is of little importance. Would not the advantages of a fixed Easter far outweigh the ecclesiological—if that is the right word—difficulties that might arise?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara, that we should celebrate Easter. It is obviously a convenience if we can celebrate it mostly together. As I explained, the Government are not inclined to make a move that does not have the agreement of the Churches. If we did that all we would do, as I explained earlier, is have three different dates on which to celebrate the one event. That might cause more disharmony than harmony.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, unusually for him, he identified a non-existent red herring? If my noble friend will look at the Question on the Order Paper put down by the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, he will see that the point of it is the separation of the May Day holiday from Easter. Is the Minister aware that one can increase that separation by moving either of them?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I understood the Question on the Order Paper to relate to whether the Government would fix Easter. My noble friend shakes his head, but he must be reading a different Order Paper from the one that I am reading. My Order Paper asks whether, they will seek to implement the Easter Act". I attempted to explain that had we tried to implement the Easter Act there would be even more bunching than there is now. When my noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Seear, asked "Why not shift the May Day Bank Holiday?" I told the noble Baroness that we are considering that but that we have not come to a conclusion.

§ Baroness Robson of Kiddington
My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that that is not what my noble friend asked? Does he also agree that there are many of us who feel that the fact that we did away with Whitsun was the beginning of the end? Most of us wish to have the holidays where they were. It is because we have changed Whitsun to another Bank Holiday that we all object to the change.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I can quite understand that the noble Baroness likes things as they were. That is a good and progressive attitude. I can assure the noble Baroness that, as she knows only too well, this is a subject that creates a good deal of cross-flows and eddies of disagreement. We are doing our best to solve the problem. I realise that if we solved it in the way that the noble Baroness suggested it would cause a good deal of confusion elsewhere. But we are considering the May Day Bank Holiday and at the moment we do not propose to implement the Easter Act.