§ Lord Molloy asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether it is their general policy to restrict the power of government and the ambit of legislation or to extend it.
§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)My Lords, it remains our fundamental purpose to protect the security of the citizen under the rule of law. Subject to that, we shall continue to restrict the power of government to the greatest extent possible. We shall continue to bring forward legislation to achieve these aims.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the Leader of the House aware that the facts do not seem to fit with the reply he has given? Is he further aware that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, warned the country in his famous Dimbleby lecture some 10 years ago of the development of what he described as an elective dictatorship? In this House a few weeks ago a debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins of Hillhead, seemed to confirm the anxieties of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham. Is it not therefore a fact that what has really happened is that the central Executive is becoming more and more powerful and that the powers of local government and Parliament are on the wane?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I do not believe that the anxieties of the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, are relevant to this Question. The fact is that the Government are enabling individuals to take back responsibility for a whole range of activities in, for example, education and training, home ownership and also share ownership. That is good and we believe it is right.
§ Lord RentonMy Lords, do I understand that it is the Government's policy to reduce their powers in general while increasing their powers over the legal profession?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, government policy will be debated by your Lordships on 7th April. I think that we had better wait until after my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack has given the Government's Statement in that debate.
§ Lord HyltonMy Lords, is it not the case that nearly every new Bill that is brought to your Lordships' House confers great new powers on Secretaries of State to regulate our lives?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I was at pains to explain to the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, in answer to the 330 first supplementary question, that that is not so. In the last Session we had major Bills on education and housing which, for example, gave responsibility to school governors and parents, which freed polytechnics from local authority control and increased the rights of home buyers. I do not believe that what the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, said is correct or is reflected in government legislation.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, is it not the case that more and more of the legislation emanating from the Government gives secondary power to Secretaries of State, which I thought was the point that the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, was making? Is it not also the case that frequently in Bills measures are not spelt out in detail but residual powers accrue to government Ministers?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, the fact is that the less that goes into secondary legislation the more provisions have to be written on the face of Bills; consequently the legislative programme is heavier. Your Lordship's House, the revising House, needs to be vigilant and I know that it always is in considering secondary legislation.
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, is it not the case that all secondary legislation passes through your Lordships' House where it can be stopped?
§ Lord BelsteadThat depends, my Lords; it has happened on occasions. It is very rare indeed.
§ Lord Ponsonby of ShulbredeMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is considerable concern among democratically elected local authorities about the extent to which their powers are bit by bit being transferred to government-appointed quangos?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, quangos have been considerably reduced in numbers. There has been a 24 per cent. decrease since 1979. Where new legislation has limited the powers of local authorities it has generally done so in line with government policies in order to protect the interests of ratepayers and, incidentally, to regenerate our inner cities.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, is not the crucial issue hidden in this Question whether the power of government is used to free individual actions and choice or to restrict them? In that regard, is it not right that this Government have in all events used their power to the former end?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I have mentioned education and housing, but there is the whole area of deregulation. There have been three White Papers, the latest of which is entitled Releasing Enterprise, recording some 120 achievements in reducing regulation and making proposals for the future. There is also the policy for privatisation. I realise that this is not an area of agreement between the two sides of the House, but my goodness it takes away the power of the state and gives more authority and the ownership of shares to the private individual.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is the Minister not aware that over the past nine years the Government have progressively and deliberately deprived elected authorities of the powers that they had and have vested these powers in Secretaries of State and civil servants? Will he not agree that by any standard that is a retrograde step? Is it not further the case that the Government—who were constantly critical before 1979 of the setting up of statutory authorities and other bodies known as quangos—have created more quangos than any government in the post-war period? Will he be good enough to tell the House how many quangos the Governments have set up, and when will they reverse this undemocratic process?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I am very surprised that the Leader of the Opposition takes the point about non-elected public bodies because, as I said earlier, the number of non-departmental bodies has decreased by 24 per cent. since 1979. Whenever a new such body is considered we try to resist proposals unless they can be clearly demonstrated to represent the most appropriate and cost-effective solution. I shall not repeat what I said previously about the powers of local authorities. From this Box I have always tried to recognise the importance and the responsibility of local government. However, there are certain cases where the responsibilities of local government have been criticised. For example, later in this Session the Widdicombe proposals and the Local Government and Housing Bill will come before your Lordships' House. They will clearly do something about certain local government powers about which Widdicombe believed something ought to be done.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is it not the case that over the past 50 years local authorities, of all political persuasions and of none, have carried out their duties efficiently in the interests of those who elected them? Why therefore have the Government deprived those local authorities of the powers they were exercising well? Is the Minister aware that the Local Government Finance Act, for which his Government were responsible, has deprived local authorities of substantial financial powers and has put those powers into the hands of civil servants? Is that what he regards as democracy?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, the Local Government Finance Act, which is now on the statute book, makes it clear how local government is spending its money and ensures that those paying for local government expenditure can see how local government is spending its money. We believe that that is a step forward.
§ Lord Peyton of YeovilMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that, if the Government were to do something to diminish the tide of legislation which pours forth upon us—not all of it that well prepared—there are some behind him who would readily join in the applause?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I must confess to my noble friend that in my noble friend that in my darker moments I agree with 332 him. However, when one looks at the previous three sessions of the present Government one discovers that in each session an average of 43 Government Bills were enacted. That compares with an average of 45 Government Bills enacted each Session during the last three years of the previous Labour Government. I do not say that the number of Bills is always the best indicator of the weight of a programme but I do not believe that we should run away with the idea that the weight of legislation always become heavier.
§ Lord Hutchinson of LullingtonMy Lords, does the Minister agree that Government Green Papers are becoming whiter and whiter every day; and that far from being consultative papers, they lay down the views of the Government which are reached without any consultation with those affected?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Hutchinson, is referring to my noble and learned friend's Green Paper on the legal services——
§ Lord BelsteadThen let me pick out that particular Green Paper and say to the noble Lord, Lord Hutchinson, that I believe that my noble and learned friend is conducting his consultation absolutely splendidly.
§ Lord GrimondMy Lords, as a result of a Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Peyton of Yeovil, I measured the thickness of the statutes passed in the year in which I first entered Parliament. It was under a wicked, socialising, bureaucratic Labour Government. The statutes are one inch thick and are contained in one volume. The latest statutes are in three volumes and are just over four-and-a-half inches thick. Does the Minister really believe that such a weight of legislation, most of it ill-drafted and difficult to understand, is setting the people free?
§ Lord BelsteadMy Lords, I would be the last person to claim that, as regards legislation, our watch-word should be, "never mind the quality feel the width". The Government are endeavouring to legislate on important matters during the present session. We shall try to do so in as sensible a way as possible, and we shall try to listen to what is said in your Lordships' House.
§ Lord Nugent of GuildfordMy Lords, is the Minister aware that, despite the golden value of his words, we have spent 10 minutes on the Question? Does he believe that we should move on to the next Question?
§ Lord BelsteadYes, my Lords.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, before doing so——
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, may I ask the noble Leader of the House or thank him——