Farm Visits by Schools: Charging Policy (Hansard, 1 March 1989)

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, the Education Reform Act maintains the principle of free school education. If educational visits, including those to farms, take place during normal teaching time there can be no charge to pupils or their parents. Any fund raising must be on the basis of voluntary contributions. Charges may be made only if the visit is arranged as an optional extra activity out of school hours.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, I am aware of the law and, as the noble Viscount will remember, I supported its clarification by what we introduced into the 1988 Act. The question I ask is: as a result have we got matters wrong? Before we clarified the Act a great many of these visits were paid for in rather an informal way and matters were rather blurred. Is the noble Viscount aware that, having clarified the question of charging, for which I do not criticise the Government, many school governors are now worried whether they can levy voluntary contributions? There is therefore a danger— of which farm visits is a good example— that—such visits will not take place, although everyone agrees that they are educationally valuable.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord has read Circular No. 2/89 published on 12th January. It sets out the provisions of the legislation and how they will operate. While the basic principles underlying the law are very clear, provisions had to be made to cover every contingency such as a trip that takes place partly during and partly outside school hours. The document also offers practical advice that I believe will be welcomed. It has gained much from the responses to consultation on an earlier draft.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, the Minister's reply was very welcome, but will it not also be possible for the Government to help when children visit farms, and to ask farmers to point out the extremely valuable contribution made to their profession by the British Veterinary Association and British veterinary surgeons, so that children understand the value of British vets in British society?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I believe that question is slightly outside the scope of this one; but I am sure that the farming fraternity will take note of what the noble Lord has said.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is still some confusion concerning visits to farms that start during school hours but finish outside them? Can the Minister explain how that works? If there are pupils who wish to make a visit but cannot afford it, can the Minister say whether there is any way in which the school can help?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, there is help available on the last point. The school will help out if it believes that it is necessary to do so. The overriding policy is that the provision during school time has to be free, but optional out-of-hours activities can be charged for if LEAs and schools so choose. Charging is also prohibited for any out-of-hours activities that are required to fulfil statutory duties relating to the national curriculum, religious education or which are part of a syllabus for a prescribed public examination. I do not believe that I can go into more detail, but I am sure that the noble Lord will have his question well answered when he reads the circular.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, can the Minister say whether consideration has been given as to what will happen when schools are under local financial management, when their funds may be a little constrained? Can the Minister point to any particular problems that may arise in that connection, and whether the Government have thought of a resolution to them?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, there is no question of the Government imposing charges on anyone. What has now been made clear is that LEAs and schools will have the discretion to charge in certain circumstances.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Government could not spend that money better than by providing for town children to visit farms to see how they operate?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, that is a view.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, as the noble Viscount is aware, I raised the Question in order that the subject may be aired. Is he aware that some of us have received a number of letters on the subject? At the moment I have one with me from the National Farmers' Union. It makes precisely the point that I make; namely, that in seeking to clarify the law, The Government may well have reduced the opportunities for schoolchildren to learn about farming at first hand. Will the noble Viscount draw the attention of his right honourable friend the Secretary of State to the possible problems that will be emerging here, and ask that his department keeps an eye on these matters so that there is not exactly the reverse effect, in terms of dealing with charging, from the one that we wanted?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I shall certainly draw my right honourable friend's attention to what has been said in the House today.

§ The Earl of Swinton
My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that there are a number of farmers who are only too delighted to have parties of schoolchildren seeing their farms and who make no charge at all?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I am aware of that.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is always the question of transport? I hope that he will look again at my question as regards local financial management, because his answer did not exactly address the question that I put.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I shall certainly do that. As regards transport there may be occasions when a parent or a group of parents will ask a school to grant their children leave of absence so that they may participate in an activity arranged in school hours by an organisation other than the LEA or governing body. Under Section 118(4) of the Act, a third party will be able to levy charges direct on the parents for services provided. The LEA and the school governing body will not be parties to that transaction.