Hong Kong (Hansard, 29 June 1989)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur)
My Lords, we have already spoken to our EC partners, to Commonwealth governments and to the United States. We will continue to urge the wider international community to join us in doing everything possible to restore the confidence of people in Hong Kong following the deplorable events in China.

§ Lord Eden of Winton
My Lords, while I thank my noble friend for that reply, can he be more precise as to the objectives of the talks? In his reply to the debate in this House on 21st June my noble friend made a number of references to mobilising the international community and to concerting action closely in the event of a major crisis affecting Hong Kong after 1997. Is it the purpose of these talks that the Government are now holding to prepare now for the sort of swift, effective and sympathetic action that would be necessary in the event of such a crisis overtaking Hong Kong later in this decade?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, we must be very careful to distinguish between the worst possible case—the Armageddon scenario which we discussed during that debate—and the present circumstances. While those circumstances are worrying, they are certainly far from catastrophic. What is needed now is for the international community to rally round Hong Kong in order to help restore its confidence. I am afraid I cannot provide the precise details which my noble friend seeks.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, we welcome the knowledge that consultations have taken place with our EC partners and with our friends in the Commonwealth. However, can the noble Lord say something about the nature of those consultations? With whom precisely have they taken place? What proposals, if any, were put on that occasion? For example, was the matter the subject of discussion at the summit in Madrid? We welcome also the knowledge that the noble Lord's right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary is visiting Hong Kong next Sunday. Can the noble Lord tell the House whether he goes with specific proposals or to listen?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, my right honourable and learned friend will certainly be going to listen. That is the prime purpose of his visit. As regards 840 detailed proposals, I hope that the noble Lord will understand that it would not be realistic for other countries to make specific commitments of any sort in what, after all, is a vacuum at the moment. Clearly they would want to take into account all the circumstances that might be pertinent at the time. We are not yet at that point, and I sincerely hope that we will not reach it. It would be right to prepare the ground, and the discussions taking place are general discussions which have elicited a great deal of sympathy; but no firm planning can take place in the vacuum to which I referred.
In regard to Madrid, yes, my right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary discussed these matters with EC colleagues during the Council meeting in Madrid. The European Council conclusions drew attention to the great anxiety caused in Hong Kong by the recent events in China.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, will the Minister warn his right honourable and learned friend that the situation in Hong Kong—the low morale and the brain drain—is deteriorating far faster than is understood in Whitehall? Unless the Foreign Secretary goes with something really positive to say he may well be in danger of being lynched.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am aware, and my right honourable and learned friend is aware, that he goes to Hong Kong at a time of great anxiety. Nevertheless, it is extremely important that he goes there to hear the views expressed to him directly by the Hong Kong people.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that any contingency plans depend on a hypothetical situation? Does not the noble Lord agree that what we were discussing on 21st June was a hypothetical case of the worst kind? Is it not therefore necessary to discuss seriously contingency plans to meet that situation should it occur? If we were able to make such plans it would provide precisely the reassurance that the inhabitants of Hong Kong require in order to stop the present mass emigration.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I think the noble Lord is in a sense muddling two different aspects. One is the need to try to restore confidence in Hong Kong so that those who make Hong Kong so prosperous remain there. The second aspect is what to do if things ultimately go wrong. As I said, general discussions on that possibility have already taken place and have elicited sympathy. No doubt they will continue. I said on 21st June that if the worst comes to the worst and the future position in Hong Kong becomes untenable, the British Government would be clearly under a strong moral obligation to act; and no doubt the international community would be mobilised to do what the noble Lord seeks.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, as there are eight years between now and 1997, and a great deal could happen during that time, is it not premature for detailed discussions with other countries or the making of firm decisions? Could not that tactfully 841 and persuasively be pointed out to the people of Hong Kong?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I have no doubt that will be discussed when my right honourable and learned friend goes to Hong Kong. My noble friend is absolutely right in saying that it is far too early to do that sort of detailed planning. What we need is a general attitude of sympathy and support for Hong Kong, and that is what we have already achieved.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware—

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords—

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, with respect to both noble Lords, it would be helpful if they were to speak one at a time. I rather fancy that the noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter, was about to ask a further question following the answer to his first question. The noble Lord, Lord Molloy, could then follow with his question.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his intervention. Did not the noble Lord, Lord Glenarthur, misunderstand the nature of my question? By reassuring the citizens of Hong Kong that there is a plan for the worst possible situation it would stop the emigration now going on and which is so damaging to the prosperity of Hong Kong.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I did not misunderstand the question at all. The noble Lord perhaps slightly misunderstands the problem. We have to try to meet two concerns. The first is the immediate concern of restoring confidence in Hong Kong so that the brain drain about which the noble Lord is concerned can be diminished. And looking to the future, we must discuss with others how best we can meet the scenario which we all wish not to happen but on which inevitably people's minds are focused at the moment.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, it is wise for the noble Lord's right honourable and learned friend to go to Hong Kong to listen to what people have to say. I am sure that he will have taken note of the many things that Members of this House and of another place have had to say about the position. Will the noble Lord make the point to his right honourable and learned friend that if at any time the people of Hong Kong feel that they wish to have discussions with the British Government or with members of the Opposition such requests will be immediately acceded to?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, it is not for me to answer for the Opposition. If anybody wants to talk to the Opposition, that can no doubt be arranged through their channels. The Government regularly have talks with people from Hong Kong whether they be from the Hong Kong Government or elsewhere. We shall continue to do precisely that.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, following the question of my noble friend Lord Bonham-Carter, does the noble Lord agree that people are more likely to stay put in Hong Kong if they have an assurance that in the event of the worst happening there will be somewhere for them to go? There would then be no question of wishing to get out now in order to escape while they can.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, the noble Baroness seems to misunderstand the nature of the problem. She seeks an instantaneous solution to a problem which is not even likely to arise in its ultimate form before 1997 and, hopefully, will never arise, as my noble friend Lord Renton said. Therefore, to go into the kind of detail which she and others are seeking is not sensible. We have to try to arrange now through discussions with other countries some mutual understanding of the nature of the problem so that ultimately, if things go seriously wrong, that can lead to the detailed planning which she seeks.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, have the Government given any thought to the proposal, reported to have been made by the honourable Member for Beckenham, Sir Philip Goodhart, which would involve writing off the massive overseas debts of Latin American countries in proportion to the number of passports granted to Hong Kong citizens?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, the important thing is for us all to strive to make sure that Hong Kong is a success not only up until 1997 but beyond that year.

§ Lord Northfield
My Lords, might not Taiwan be a refuge for some of these citizens if ever the need were to arise? We all hope that it will not arise. As we do not have relations with the government of Taiwan, which is so obvious a place of refuge, how do the Government propose to bring them into the general considerations to which the noble Lord has referred?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, it is not for me to answer at this Dispatch Box for Taiwan. I suggest that the answer to the noble Lord's question lies more in Taiwan than here.

§ Lord Eden of Winton
My Lords, will my noble friend ask the Foreign Secretary to make clear to the people of Hong Kong that these international discussions have begun with a view to putting into place certain contingency arrangements? If he were to spell that out with complete clarity, would that not go a long way to restoring confidence among the people of Hong Kong?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I am sure that my right honourable and learned friend will refer in general terms, as I have done, to the discussions which have taken place. However, I ask my noble friend to understand that to go into the kind of detail which he seeks is asking the impossible. We have eight years to wait. All kinds of things can change between now and then. While the point that he makes is a serious one, to get into that detail really is not sensible.