HL Deb 23 June 1989 vol 509 cc418-20

11.24 a.m.

Lord Bruce of Donington asked Her Majesty's Government:

What proposals they made to the EC Economic and Financial Council on 19th June regarding measures to combat fraud against Community funds; what were the specific reactions of other member states to these proposals; and what decisions were made by ECOFIN as a result.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, the Economic and Financial Council of 19th June had a constructive discussion of fraud against the Community Budget. In particular, the council endorsed the Commission's 45 point work programme for fighting fraud and called for early action on the Commission's proposals to tighten controls in export refunds and intervention storage. The UK played a major role in achieving the progress that has been made.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply which only answers the last part of my Question. My Question, as your Lordships will know, asked what proposals Her Majesty's Government put before ECOFIN and also asked what were the reactions of the other members. The noble Lord has not answered those questions at all.

Is the noble Lord aware that in the view of many Her Majesty's Government, ever since the matter was brought to their attention some 18 months ago, have taken a very casual attitude towards the whole issue of fraud. Are we entitled to expect that in the future they will take a far more vigorous and constructive part and tell Parliament exactly what they are doing to prevent the fraud, amounting at present to some £2 billion a year?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I deny that the Government are taking a casual attitude to this matter. We have achieved a great deal of what we wanted to see at the ECOFIN meeting which followed from the March ECOFIN, in which the United Kingdom played a leading role. We tabled a wide range of proposals for combating fraud which was well received. The Council made a unanimous declaration which incorporated our major ideas. The June ECOFIN consolidated the progress in ways reflecting the United Kingdom ideas. In particular the Commission announced a detailed work programme for fighting fraud and proposals were announced on tightening controls in export refunds and intervention storage, exactly as the United Kingdom had asked.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it was my right honourable friend the Prime Minister who took an initiative—I think about 12 months ago—but she did not receive support from any of the other member governments?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, as I said, the Government certainly do not have a casual attitude to that matter. The whole Government, from the Prime Minister downwards, including my right honourable friend the Minister for Agriculture, take this matter extremely seriously.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, have any prosecutions been brought in respect of frauds on Community funds? If not why not? If they have been brought, before what court and with what consequence?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, that of course is a matter for the Commission. I believe that there have been prosecutions, but I shall have to look into the matter and write to the noble and learned Lord with the details.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, I apologise for being the third member of the Front Bench to ask a question, but that may be forgiven on a Friday morning. Does the noble Lord recall that on 13th April we debated the report of the Select Committee of this House into the whole question of fraud in the Community? Does he recall that our committee made several very important recommendations? One of the most important was the amending of the duties of the Committee of Auditors. Can the noble Lord say whether any of those recommendations of our committee has been implemented, because the Government spokesman at the time said that they commended these recommendations and supported them?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I do not have a detailed list of the recommendations which your Lordships' committee made at that time. The proposals which the UK suggested, and which were accepted, comprised a timetable of proposals in the field of export refunds and intervention storage. The Commission tabled that at ECOFIN on 19th June and there were a series of other United Kingdom-inspired measures which were accepted.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, if we are talking about Community funds and fraud, can the Minister assure me that included in the investigations will be how much these members receive? That's a bit of a lark, isn't it?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am not certain that that matter actually falls within the remit of this investigation.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, in conclusion, can the noble Lord state what steps the Government are taking to increase the resources available to HM Customs and Excise and to the Fraud Squad so that we in this country may set an example to the rest of Europe in rigorously pursuing all these questions of fraud which arise within the territories of member states and do not arise in the Commission itself?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

So far as what we are doing at home is concerned, the Commission wants 5 per cent. of consignments eligible for export refunds to be checked. Our Customs already checks 7 per cent., which is in excess of the requirement. We already concentrate checks on high risk consignments and products. Additional training has been given to 4,000 officers by the Customs and Excise, and CAP liaison officers have been appointed to improve the flow of information concerning CAP fraud.

Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether there is a coherent Community policy with regard to the courts which have jurisdiction to prosecute such offences?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer my noble and learned friend's question. I shall write to him.