Prisons: Overcrowding (Hansard, 22 June 1989)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, we are providing 2,000 new prison places at existing establishments during this financial year. We have invited the private sector to produce proposals for the design and construction of three remand centres. We have given approval to proceed with two of those and negotiations are continuing in respect of a third remand centre. Nine of the new prisons which are currently planned or are under construction around the country will be local prisons.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, the noble Earl is clearly trying to be helpful and I am grateful for that. Does he agree that the problem of overcrowding is particularly acute in a hot summer and that it is also geographically concentrated? Is it not the case that one-third of the deficit of places—about 5,500—is concentrated in Leeds, Birmingham, Bedford and Manchester? Will he tell us what specific relief can he expected in those places?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that, if there is overcrowding, it is obviously exacerbated in hot weather. But the fact of there being overcrowding is bad in the first place, whatever the weather, and we are taking a great deal of action to prevent it. With regard to the particular places that the noble Lord mentioned, the worst are Leeds, Leicester, Bedford, Birmingham, Manchester and Reading. We are doing a great deal of additional building. By the mid-1990s, 25,000 new prison places will be available. In the last financial year, £911 millon was spent on the prison service and £205 million was spent on prison building. During the forthcoming year, £405 million will be spent on prison building, so a great deal is being done to rectify the problem about which the noble Lord is correctly concerned.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, I welcome what the noble Earl has told us about the three new remand centres, but can he give us any information about additional provision for after-care since a reduction in recidivism would obviously go a long way to reducing overcrowding in gaols?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, with the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, I think that that is a somewhat wider question. What we are concerned with here is how to get over the business of immediate 302 overcrowding, but I shall certainly look into the point that she has raised and write to her.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, perhaps I may thank my noble friend the Minister for the letter that he has written to me today concerning Hull prison, where there is serious overcrowding of young remand prisoners. Perhaps I may also thank him for, and indeed congratulate him on, the action that has been taken there. However, is he able to tell us whether the various recommendations that he has made concerning the buildings could be brought forward? He says that B wing, for instance, will be improved within three years. Would it not be possible to bring that forward?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I can only tell my friend that all those matters are being dealt with with the greatest expedition. I shall certainly see whether it is possible to bring that forward, but I would doubt it.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, is it not the case that a large building programme may be of little value unless it is combined with a determined attempt to reduce the number of prison sentences that are being passed? In view of the wide variation between one court and another as to whether, upon conviction, a sentence of imprisonment should be passed, might it not be time to review and tighten up the relevant statutory provisions so as to reduce the unnecessary use of prisons, particularly remand prisons, in our country?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble and learned Lord will know full well that sentences are a matter for the courts. It is a matter for the courts whether they decide to place people on remand. We have promoted and encouraged the use of non-custodial alternatives to prison sentences such as probation and community service. We have also done a great deal to encourage the use of bail hostels. About 98 approved probation bail hostels in England and Wales provide about 1,850 places. An additional 500 bail places are to be provided at approved hostels by April 1991, so there is quite a lot being done to meet the point made by the noble and learned Lord.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, will my noble friend tell the House something about the standard to which the new places are being constructed? For instance, will he undertake to confirm that none of them will make necessary the disgusting habit of slopping out in cells which accentuates any degree of overcrowding that there may be?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, slopping out is a practice which I think is offensive to most people. We are taking every step to remove slopping out from existing prisons and that will be done over the course of the next few years. But there has to be a programme. New prison buildings will not require slopping out.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, in view of the very serious situation regarding the rise in the 303 number of suicide attempts among young remand prisoners, can the noble Earl say whether there are any new cases of suicide attempts in the overcrowded local prisons to which the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, referred?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, suicide in prison is always a distressing event, and we are taking all possible steps to prevent it. There is careful screening on reception to identify those who may be at risk; and thereafter there is constant vigilance by staff. We are constantly seeking to improve the procedures. Last month new instructions on suicide prevention were issued.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, following the questions put by the noble Baronesses, Lady Faithfull and Lady Ewart-Biggs, is the Minister aware of the disgraceful conditions in which young prisoners aged between 15 and 21 years are held not only in Hull Prison but also in Leeds Prison? Is he further aware that in Hull Prison numerous attempts at suicide have been made and in Leeds Prison no fewer than seven suicides have occurred in the past 18 months? How do the Government reconcile that situation with a constructive and humane penal system?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, as the noble Lord knows very well, this is a matter which concerns us greatly, as it has concerned all governments. One can never prevent suicides. All that one can do is to take as much action as one can to see that the chances of it happening are as small as possible. As I explained to the noble Baroness, we have taken further action just recently. The real trouble is the overcrowding in those remand centres. The only way to get over that problem is to build new ones. We are doing that at a far greater rate than ever before; but it is bound to take a certain amount of time.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, can the Minister give me a figure of any attempted suicides in the prisons mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I have no figures for attempted suicides; but I shall see whether figures are available and, if so, let the noble Baroness have them.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, perhaps I may remind the Minister of a debate that took place in this House on some of these topics about seven months ago in which he outlined certain proposals. Can he report any progress on three of them: setting a limit on dates for trials; electronic tagging; and tightening the criteria for the remand of juveniles in custody?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, we have introduced a pilot scheme to test the viability of electronic tagging on remand prisoners. Of course it will be necessary to see what success that achieves before we can comment upon it. I am afraid that I failed to hear the noble Lord's last question.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, I realised that the Minister was interrupted by his friends. One of the other two proposals concerned fixing a time limit for trials, on which some progress had been made. Speaking on 30th November, he held out hopes of more trials. He also said that consideration was being given to tightening up the criteria for the remand of juveniles in custody.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, with regard to the fixing of time limits, I shall have to acquaint myself with the exact position. I shall get in contact with the noble Lord.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, I should like to put a small practical question to my noble friend regarding the slopping out system that was mentioned. If an aircraft with its limited space and all its problems can overcome the situation as efficiently as it does, why cannot that system be applied in the prisons?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, if I may say so, I thought that that question, coming from my noble friend, was a rather naÎve one. On the whole, an aircraft carries perfectly law-abiding human beings who do not normally do nasty things when they are let out of their seats. That is not always the case with the prison population. Care has to be taken about what happens when they are allowed out of their cells.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I am sure that the House will agree with the Minister that sentencing is a matter for judges. However, where there is an absolutely scandalous situation as regards overcrowding of prisons, does he not agree that it is the job of Parliament to set out certain principles of policy? Does he not further agree that one of those principles of policy is the reduction of the time within which many remand prisoners stay in prison? Will he confirm that the figure of 80 per cent. of those offenders who are put on community order schemes together with probation order schemes successfully complete those schemes? Is that not an indication that those schemes ought to be expanded and used more often by the courts?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. Of course Parliament has to set the parameters (which it does) within which the courts may carry out their sentencing. The difficulty is that when there are many people being sentenced, and crimes are getting worse, there is quite a clamour of opinion for the sentences to be heavier. We have ensured that, so far as possible, those who ought not to be in prison do not go there. The noble Lord may be quite right; I do not have his exact figures but the indication that he gave is quite right. However, that is only to be expected. Those who are given probation orders or community service orders are specifically chosen as being those who are most likely to succeed and not to abscond.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, is the Minister aware—

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, will the noble Lord give way? We have spent 12 minutes on the first Question. Through a Procedure Committee Report which has been accepted by the House, it is on record that, if possible, Questions should be limited to 20 minutes for the four of them. Thirteen minutes is rather excessive. Perhaps the House would think it right now to go to the second starred Question.