"Working for Patients": Amplification (Hansard, 19 June 1989)

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, in addition to the eight working papers issued in England and those issued in Scotland and Northern Ireland, a further working paper Capital Charges: Funding Issues (England) was issued at 2.30 this afternoon.
Further information on the other aspects of the White Paper will be provided in the period up to the end of 1991 for staff and, where there is a need, the public.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Is he aware that there are many issues in the papers which have been published so far which are causing some confusion and people do not understand the position? For example, is he aware that in her foreword to Working for Patients the Prime Minister wrote: The National Health Service will continue to be available to all, regardless of income, and to be financed mainly out of general taxation"? 8 What does "mainly" mean—50 per cent., 70 per cent., 90 per cent?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. As regards confusion, I am afraid that quite a lot of confusion results from the comments of the noble Lord and his colleagues, who have allowed a certain amount of misrepresentation to creep into what they have said about the White Paper. As regards the Prime Minister's comments, I can only repeat what she said: the health service will continue to be funded mainly by general taxation.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, after massive rejection by the professionals working in the National Health Service, the electorate have now spoken. Does the Minister agree that all the signs are that there is a very deep sense of public concern throughout the United Kingdom about the Government's proposals for the reorganisation of the National Health Service? Will he convey to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State the view that the Government owe it to the people to think again about both the content and the timing of their proposals?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I am not aware that the electorate had spoken on the subject of the National Health Service. If the noble Lord was referring to yesterday's results of the European elections, so far as I know the National Health Service was not a question in those elections.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, in which case does the Minister accept that he has not followed the European elections because it was a central issue in every constitutency across the country?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, as the noble Lord knows perfectly well, the election concerned the European Parliament. The National Health Service is not a responsibility of the European Parliament. If the noble Lord takes the view that the electorate are so unsophisticated that they voted purely on the health service he has a much more cynical view of the electorate than I have.

§ Lord Auckland
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the White Paper is set out admirably and clearly and for the most part is an admirable document on the complete reorganisation of the National Health Service? However, is he also aware that there is some concern about the timetable for implementing the White Paper proposals, particularly as they concern the hospital service? Will he given his attention to that aspect of the matter?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I thank my noble kinsman for those remarks. We are aware that the timetable is tight but we believe that the health service will be able to adapt in the necessary time to the changes proposed in the White Paper.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the Minister aware that my noble friend was referring to the public perception of what the Government are up 9 to? Would that not be better described as working against patients rather than working for them?

§ Lord Henley
No, my Lords. It is working for patients, as it says very clearly on the front of the document.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, in stating that the elections last Thursday had nothing to do with domestic affairs and the National Health Service, he is contradicting all the Conservative spokesmen I have heard speaking on radio and television, who have said that it is a case of mid-term blues? Is he not wrong in suggesting that my noble friend is in error in saying that the British electorate have rejected out of hand the Government's policy, particularly on the National Health Service?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, everyone can have a different interpretation of these matters. I say that the noble Lord is wrong. There is no evidence that the public have rejected the Government's White Paper proposals. As I said, the public have been subjected to a considerable amount of misrepresentation, particularly from noble Lords and members of the noble Lord's party.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, without going into further detail, is the noble Lord aware that the results of the election were extremely satisfactory? Furthermore, does he recall the statement made by his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales in a debate on Welsh affairs in another place on 1st March when he said that a working paper explaining the implications of the Government's plans would be published? Nearly four months have gone by: where is that working paper, which is keenly awaited in Wales?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I am glad that the noble Lord is pleased with the election results. It will be a temporary blip, and it is nice that his party should have such temporary enhancements. No doubt in two or three years' time the electorate will have a chance to show what they really feel about these matters.
As regards Wales, one working paper on Wales has, I believe, beeen issued. I do not have the date and if it has not been issued I shall let the noble Lord know. However, it is my understanding that Working for Patients: The NHS in Wales—Proposals for Action has been published.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, will the noble Lord explain how on earth district hospitals can operate under market forces and to what extent a policy of operating hospitals under market forces appears in the health service White Paper?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, that is quite another question. We have had many questions on the contents of the White Paper; we have had debates on the contents of the White Paper. The Question deals with documents that we have produced in explanation and amplification.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply and for the interest he has shown. However, does he agree that the National Health Service is greatly valued by the people and that we all have a responsibility to defend it and to inquire into what will happen to it? That is why people want to know what the Prime Minister meant when she said that, in future, the National Health Service will be mainly supported by taxation. How much will not be? May we be told that? The people have a right to know.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, my right honourable friend said that it would be mainly financed by general taxation. I think that that is perfectly clear and I reiterate the Government's support for the health service.