Greenhouse Effect and Ozone Layer (Hansard, 13 June 1989)

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (The Earl of Caithness)
My Lords, a major contribution to the scientific assessment of the ozone issue was made by the department's stratospheric ozone review group. The London Ozone Conference brought commitments to a substantial increase in the number of parties to the Montreal Protocol. The United Kingdom will host the crucial second meeting of parties in 1990. The United Kingdom is giving fullest support to the UNEP-WMO Inter-Governmental Panel on Climate Change, including chairing one of its three working groups. We proposed urgent consideration of a framework convention on climate at the last UNEP governing council meeting.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for his reassuring reply. Perhaps I may apologise to your Lordships for asking a Question that is apparently similar to that asked by the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, yesterday. However, it is on a subject that is very important and dear to all your Lordships, as it is to me; namely, the preservation of our green and pleasant world. Can the Minister tell us if the agreement reached at the environment council last week concerning the fitting of three-way catalysts to all new cars will help either the ozone layer or the greenhouse effect?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, there will not be much effect on the ozone layer, but I can tell my noble friend that there will certainly be an effect on greenhouse gases. The three-way catalyst increases the amount of carbon dioxide that a car emits because of the increased fuel that it burns. Accordingly, I insisted that, as part of the agreement that we reached in Luxembourg, the Commission should come forward with proposals as soon as possible in order to tackle the gas that the present agreement does not take into account. I shall continue to chivvy the Commission until it does.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that before we can take the Government seriously as regards the ozone layer and the effect of carbon dioxide, we expect them to take some action? First, I hope that the noble Earl will recommend to the Government that we expect them to abandon the Electricity Bill. I do not see what is funny about that; it is a serious matter. Secondly, I 1258 hope that the Minister will also tell his right honourable friend that the Government should have in place of the Electricity Bill an energy policy based on renewable sources of energy and energy conservation. Does the Minister not agree that that is the right policy? I hope that the Government will adopt it.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord knows full well just how seriously we take these matters. Although we take them seriously we shall doubtless differ from the noble Lord on many occasions still to come. I can assure him that renewables in the energy policy are considerations that the Department of Energy and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State are looking into. We are spending a great deal of money in researching them.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the Minister claims that the Government are serious as regards energy efficiency. Can he tell the House how it is that they are engaged in cutting down the resources for the energy efficiency unit? As my noble friend has just suggested, will the Minister accept that, concerning the greenhouse effect, energy conservation and renewable sources of energy are far better and surer methods of reducing the greenhouse effect than proliferating nuclear power stations?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I answered most of the noble Lord's question yesterday. I am sure that he will be satisfied by what I said when he reads the Official Report. Conservation of energy and renewables are some of the ways in which the potential of the greenhouse effect can be tackled. Another way is to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide that we burn. Therefore nuclear power is the environmentally best option.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the noble Earl answer the first part of my question?

§ Lord Brougham and Vaux
My Lords, reverting back to the Question on the Order Paper, can my noble friend say what individuals can do to help?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we can all do a great deal to help. Perhaps I may suggest that we fit thermostats to our radiators and then turn them down; that we use long-life, low-powered light bulbs where appropriate; that we ask about energy consumption when buying home appliances; that we cut out unnecessary car journeys and take a little exercise; that we keep within speed limits not only because it is good for the environment but is also safer. Finally, I suggest that we use ozone-friendly products.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the noble Earl answer the first question that I asked him? How does he expect the House to believe that the Government are serious concerning energy conservation when they are engaged in cutting down very severely the resources for the energy efficiency unit in their own department?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I know that the House will join with me in saying how disappointed we were that the noble Lord was not in the House yesterday to listen to me.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that it is true that in order to do something about improving the environment rather than just talking about it, it is necessary, first, to co-operate with our European partners and other countries; and, secondly, to have a strong economy? On both counts, does the Minister not agree that the Government have achieved a considerable measure of success?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. One needs a strong economy and the co-operation of all the other countries in the rest of the world. The basis of the London Ozone Conference was to seek the support of other countries and to raise the awareness of the problem. The conference was a great success.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I am glad that this matter has arisen on the Order Paper again because it gives me an opportunity to thank the noble Earl and to pay tribute to him for his personal efforts in the international negotiations on the ozone layer and the greenhouse effect. It also gives me an opportunity to ask again the question to which I did not receive an answer yesterday. Will he urge his governmental colleagues in the Department of Energy to accept your Lordships' amendment to the Electricity Bill? This would encourage energy conservation, which the noble Earl has agreed plays a significant part, if not the only part, in protecting the ozone layer and providing protection against the greenhouse effect?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to chide me for not answering his question yesterday. For that I apologise. I have not yet had time to draw it to the attention of my noble friend Lady Hooper. I shall do so at the first opportunity, when we have finished the Water Bill.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, can the noble Earl confirm to the House that the so-called ozone layer is not a layer; it is merely a maximum in the concentration of ozone from sea level to outer space? Secondly, there is not a hole in it. There is merely a depletion. This occurs over the Antarctic where nobody lives.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, yes, there is a depletion, but there is also a depletion over Britain, Norway and other parts of Europe—and people do live there.