§ 2.56 p.m.
§ Lord Teviot asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Why they have not published a Green Paper on the licensing of minicab proprietors in the light of the discussion of the Maxwell Stamp Report (Cmnd. 4483), published in 1970.
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I have little to add to the reply given on 11th May by my honourable friend the Minister of State for Public Transport in reply to a Question in another place. The Stamp Report was published many years ago and I think it is of doubtful value to assume that its recommendations are automatically valid today or for the future.
§ Lord TeviotMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer, but he will not be surprised that I am not very pleased with it because it does not precisely relate to the Question. Will my noble friend please agree that I do not ask for 40,000 minicab drivers to be registered, as are taxi drivers, but that the minicab proprietors should be registered so that they can find drivers of suitable character in order that the public can be properly protected?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I am sorry that I misunderstood my noble friend's Question and I hope that he will not misunderstand my Answer. The evidence seems to suggest that private hire cars outnumber taxis and that there is no need at present for any legislation in that direction.
§ Lord Bruce-GardyneMy Lords, can my noble friend enlighten your Lordships about the reasons behind the decision apparently to preserve that 852 well-loved Spanish custom—the black cabs' "knowledge". Can he tell us in what way that differs in principle from the National Dock Labour Scheme?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, no I cannot.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, does the noble Viscount appreciate that, contrary to the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, we welcome the statement made by his ministerial colleague Mr. Portillo that he does not propose any changes at all in the legislation in London affecting the relative position of taxi and hire car trades and that we also welcome his praise for the service given by the London taxi service? Does that imply that there will also be no legislation affecting the 1976 Act, of which there has been some criticism? I also ask the noble Viscount, in the light of the statement by Mr. Portillo, which action is being proposed when the London Local Authorities (No. 2) Bill comes before the Select Committee, Clause 49 of which proposes an allocation of minicab licences to each of the individual boroughs in London?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I assure the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, that the statement by my honourable friend the Minister for Public Transport says that it is too early to propose new legislation, so no new legislation is proposed. As regards the London Local Authorities (No. 2) Bill, although technically neutral on private Bills, the department's Ministers have indicated that they do not welcome the proposals because the Bill would make each borough an independent licensing authority. Different approaches to licensing would cause confusion as so many journeys cross borough boundaries. I am told that the Bill is in some difficulty. As I have already indicated, although the Government are either benevolently or malevolently neutral on private Bills, on this occasion it is malevolently neutral.
§ Lord Thomas of SwynnertonMy Lords, in relation to the adjective used by my noble friend Lord Bruce-Gardyne concerning Spanish customs, is my noble friend the Minister aware that it is not always accepted as being identical to procrastination, dishonesty and laziness?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I am of course aware of my noble friend's interest in Spanish customs, but I do not think I should go further than that.
§ Lord St. John of FawsleyMy Lords, may I have an assurance which many people would welcome? Can the Minister assure me that the black taxi cab service, which is the best taxi service in the world, will in fact be preserved and not deregulated? May I take this opportunity in relation to the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Bruce-Gardyne to wish him luck the next time he wishes to get a taxi?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I can give my noble friend that assurance.
§ Lord Bruce-GardyneMy Lords, perhaps I may try once again. May I ask my noble friend what sort of signal he thinks it gives to other negotiators in possession of state supported monopoly positions when apparently the black cab taxi drivers are sanctioned in their longstanding restrictive practice and, furthermore, given an 11 per cent. fare increase to reward them for maintaining it?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, all I can tell my noble friend is that the evidence seems to suggest that private hire cars now outnumber taxis, and we believe they are growing at a faster rate, so there is plenty of competition.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that there are certain types of service which justify the maintenance of a restrictive practice?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I am not sure whether I am expected to act as an umpire or referee on this Question. I think I shall leave it at that.
§ Lord TeviotMy Lords, I am not deliberately seeking to get the last word, but does my noble friend agree that the Question on the Order Paper does not in any way denigrate the London black taxis? I agree with all that has been said for them. However, will my noble friend please think again and ask his honourable friends in another place to look into possible legislation to ensure that those who drive minicabs are suitable people for looking after the public?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, perhaps I may remind the House that the Question on the Order Paper is:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why they have not published a Green Paper on the licensing of minicab proprietors in the light of the discussion of the Maxwell Stamp Report … published in 1970".The answer I gave is that we are not proposing any legislation and therefore there is no point in a Green Paper.