§ Lord McCarthyMy Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Dean of Beswick, I have been requested and authorised to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the International Labour Organisation, the United Nations committee responsible for employment matters, has held Her Majesty's Government to be in breach of normal conventions on eight counts, and if so, what they are doing about it.
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, the United Kingdom reports at specified intervals on the conventions of the International Labour Organisation which it has ratified. Following these reports and other documentation such as criticisms from trade unions, the Committee of Experts has questioned aspects of the United Kingdom's application of various conventions. The United Kingdom Government will be responding to these points.
§ Lord McCarthyMy Lords, does the noble Earl agree that the Committee of Experts has done more than that? It has stated that the Government are in breach of eight specific conventions: on the GCHQ unionisation, the teachers' negotiations, sympathetic strikes, dismissals for breach of contract and a series of other issues. We are already behind Libya and South Africa. Unless the Government are prepared to do something about this we shall take our place with Chile, Haiti and Saudi Arabia.
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, the noble Lord paints a rather pessimistic picture. The one matter that the ILO committee fully recognises is that these are complex legal issues. The Government of the United Kingdom are fully confident that we have in no way breached Convention No. 87, or indeed Convention No. 93, which is the other convention referred to.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, does the noble Earl agree that there is an extremely serious element to this Question; namely, that there are a number of communist and fascist type countries which would find nothing good to be said about the ILO? Does he also agree that, if a nation pretends to support the ILO and then cheats, that is almost as deplorable?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, I fully agree with the noble Lord that nations should not cheat or be seen to be cheating with regard to the ILO. Fortunately Her Majesty's Government are in a very strong position because our record on employment matters is extremely good. I remind the noble Lord of some of the Government's reforms on industrial relations and trade union law since 1979 which have contributed to the significant improvement in our country's economic performance and growth of jobs in recent years. The results are apparent in the immense improvement to our country's reputation overseas, not least with investors and potential investors.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, what do the Government intend to do about the lapses that have been reported? Do Her Majesty's Government intend to put these matters right?
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, the report indicates that there have been several indications where Her Majesty's Government have not supported the International Labour Organisation's rules on those eight counts. Now that they are aware that these lapses exist, will Her Majesty's Government be putting matters right to erase the almost bad name that we are building up for ourselves in the free world?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, as I said in my earlier remarks, Her Majesty's Government will be responding in detail in due course to the ILO.
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, "when" is always a good word to interject. My understanding is that our response, in writing, will probably be timed for our next report on the convention concerned.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, the noble Earl referred to the Government's employment policy leading to a successful economic performance. Do a balance of payments deficit of £15 billion and interest rates of 14 per cent. denote success?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, I was referring to employment matters. I have given an indication of the overall and consistent success that we have had. The noble Lord may enjoy referring to some difficulties about which we all know. However, I have every confidence—and I am sure that the majority of your Lordships' House will share that confidence—that these matters will be solved before too long.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, does the Minister agree that the breaches alleged are of provisions that are complex and technical and that there is no substantive derogation from the main provisions of the ILO Accord?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, I am always very happy indeed to have support from my noble friend. I thank him for backing my earlier remarks about the complex legal issues.
§ Lord McCarthyMy Lords, the noble Earl cannot get away with that, can he? The fact is that the Government made representations to the Committee of Experts, which turned the Government down. It has considered the Government's case and has turned them down. The matter will now be referred to the annual conference of the ILO. If the ILO turns the Government down, will they act?
The Earl of DundeeMy Lords, the International Labour Organisation's conference opens in Geneva tomorrow, Wednesday, 7th June. One of its committees is the committee on the application of conventions and recommendations. It discusses the experts' report and is likely to debate some of the eight criticisms. The United Kingdom will respond to all the criticisms in writing, as I said earlier, probably when we submit our next report on the applicable convention.