HL Deb 19 July 1989 vol 510 cc776-7

2.52 p.m.

Lord Rochester asked Her Majesty's Government:

What progress has been made in developing training in government departments since the publication in December 1988 of the White Paper Employment for the 1990s.

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, the Civil Service's approach to training already largely conforms with the framework for training set out in the White Paper. This emphasises the need for sound planning, investment and professionalism in the training and development of staff.

Lord Rochester

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply so far as it goes. Does he agree that the White Paper is written as though the only people in need of training are those in industry and commerce? There is hardly a mention of what needs to be done in national and local government. I suspect that most of the training there is cognitive rather than experiential. Would not all public services benefit greatly from the use of trainers experienced in helping to manage change in the private sector?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, the Civil Service's record on training is extremely good and is highly regarded in training and development circles of all types. The White Paper is a framework for the national training effort and does not differentiate between government departments and other industries. On the other point raised by the noble Lord there is a great deal of cross-fertilisation in training between government departments and industry.

Baroness Turner of Camden

My Lords, will the Minister tell the House, in view of the welcome commitment in the White Paper to the need for improving training and prospects for women, what is especially being done in those areas in public service and the Civil Service generally?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, again the Civil Service's record on employing women is very good. There are increasing numbers of women at senior and middle management grades. I gather that a report has just been published on the future for women in the Civil Service. A copy will be placed in the Library.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, will the noble Lord accept that the abysmal performance of British Rail management in the recent dispute points to the need for a really good look at retraining for British management throughout industry?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, that is another question; the White Paper relates specifically to training.

The Viscount of Oxfuird

My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that principles of total quality management are used in the training process of civil servants?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, the Civil Service is active as a major employer on several of the industry lead bodies which are helping to define workplace standards of performance and has incorporated them into its training programme.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, taking account of the questions already asked, is the noble Lord not aware that the Government's record in the field of training over the past few years is disappointing if not disgraceful? For example, the number of trainees in manufacturing industry has fallen from 210,500 in 1981 to 93,000 in 1988. Is that not a grave and ominous decline for a country that depends on manufacturing and exports?

Furthermore, are the Government not cutting the YTS budget by £150 million by 1991? Is that not an appalling story? How does the noble Lord justify it?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, the Question appertains purely to training in government departments. There, the Government's record is extremely good with over £300 million being spent —approximately 6 per cent. of the pay bill. That is in line with the best practice among employers generally.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the Government's record on training in government departments must be set against their record generally and that the general record as regards the prospects of the United Kingdom is appalling?

Lord Strathclyde

My Lords, of course, that is why the White Paper was published last year.

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