HL Deb 13 July 1989 vol 510 cc422-4

3.24 p.m.

Lord Molloy asked Her Majesty's Government:

What meetings they plan to hold with associations representing health professionals to discuss issues arising from the White Paper Working for Patients.

Lord Henley

My Lords, a wide variety of fruitful meetings, both at ministerial and official level, have already taken place with associations representing health professionals to discuss the implementation of the Government's proposals for the National Health Service. Further meetings will be arranged as necessary.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that as a result of some of these meetings there is now even graver apprehension, in that members of big associations such as the BMA, the Royal Colleges, the nursing associations and the association of health visitors feel that they have not been given a square deal in the discussions that have taken place? Does he agree that the members of those associations and their predecessors have given their lives to working for patients and that they are apprehensive not so much for their own future but for the future of the National Health Service?

Lord Henley

My Lords, as I said, my right honourable friends have had many meetings with various associations. I can only say that we remain committed to the proposals outlined in the White Paper.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, can the noble Lord say what is the point of further meetings if the Secretary of State continues to ignore the advice given to him in good faith by the doctors? Do we not now need to have some pilot studies to look into some of these proposals to find out who is right about the possible consequences of the schemes? Is it the doctors or the Secretary of State?

Lord Henley

My Lords, it is not just doctors who advise my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. There are many other people involved. As I said, we remain committed to our proposals but we are ready to discuss ideas on implementation.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, I welcome the meetings but why are the Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues so crude in their condemnation of the doctors? If the doctors who work in the health service genuinely feel that the proposals put forward by the Government may damage both patient care and the structure of the health service, are they not absolutely right to say so? They belong to a non-political organisation. Can the Minister suggest any motive in the BMA's mind for attacking the Government except its genuine feelings?

Lord Henley

My Lords, the noble Lord knows perfectly well that my right honourable friend has not condemned the doctors. He has condemned the propaganda, which is not all accurate, that has been put out by the BMA.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, does not the noble Lord agree that what he has condemned is what the doctors have been saying? They have been saying it very publicly and openly. Can he suggest any reason why they should do that other than because they believe what they say?

Lord Henley

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, I cannot speak for the motives of the doctors. I said that my right honourable friend condemned the BMA and its campaign against the proposals in the White Paper. It has been designed to give a totally wrong impression of what the proposed reforms are intended to do.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the BMA's campaign was authorised by the doctors of England, Scotland and Wales? They told their officials what the policy ought to be. They said, "We are the doctors and you will now make representations to the Government". All that has happened has been a very vulgar attack on the president of the BMA by the Secretary of State. May I urge the noble Lord to ask his right honourable friend to be good enough to meet again in a fresh spirit of endeavour, all these associations, including the BMA, the Health Visitors' Association, the Royal Colleges and all those who represent the nurses? Those associations are of the firm belief that in previous meetings with the Secretary of State the real desire behind the Green Paper or the White Paper is ultimately to destroy the National Health Service.

Lord Henley

My Lords, yet again I have to tell the noble Lord that we are not out to destroy the health service as he seems to think. As I said earlier, my right honourable friend will consider requests for meetings from any association representing health professions.