Forestry Commission Land: Public Access (Hansard, 12 July 1989)

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Sanderson of Bowden)
My Lords, as announced by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland in another place on 16th June, we have asked the Forestry Commission to sell a further 100,000 hectares of forestry land in the period up to the end of the century. We are giving careful consideration to ways of allowing the general public to continue to enjoy access to these forests in a way which is compatible with management for forestry and other purposes. A copy of the full Statement made by my right honourable friend is in the Library.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that in the past few years 140,000 hectares have been sold to the private sector, and that now an additional 100,000 hectares is to be disposed of? Is nothing sacred in this country any more? The Government have sold off the public's water 255 company, the public's electricity company and now the Government have decided to sell off the nation's land. Will the Minister confirm that last year there were more than 50 million day visitors to the nation's Forestry Commission land? Will he give me a firm assurance that there is no danger of the public being excluded from the land which is now being sold and which is an important amenity?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, the noble Lord has raised two questions. To deal first with the question of access, the Government are well aware of the importance of public access to the commission's forests. Therefore, as has already been said, we are considering ways in which reasonable access can be preserved when commission forests are sold. It is a complex issue, however, involving public access to private property. We must therefore take time and trouble to consider all aspects and get the answer right. There are many ways, through voluntary means, by which access to private woodlands has been achieved, and we are satisfied that that part of the voluntary effort is working extremely well.
As to the first question that the noble Lord put to me about the disposal policy, as he has heard from me before, the Forestry Commission owns 915,000 hectares of forest land, 166,000 hectares of unplantable and miscellaneous land (as at 31st March this year), and 62,000 hectares of agricultural land. Part of the Government's policy is to return some of that land to the private sector. I do not believe that the amount that has to be returned in the period to the end of this century is in any way excessive.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, does the noble Lord know what proportion of that land is being bought by foreign interests?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
No, my Lords, I do not know what proportion is being bought by foreign interest. All I have to say is that widespread interest has been shown in the land that has been disposed of. As I understand it, that will continue.

§ Lord Rees
My Lords, in view of what my noble friend has told the House about proposed sales of Forestry Commission land, and against the background of the Government's proclaimed planting targets, can he tell the House what thought has been given by the Government to encouraging new forms of investment in forestry, particularly by small investors?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I am very conscious of the importance of attracting smaller investors, and indeed institutional funds, into forestry. I can assure my noble friend that we shall consider carefully any proposals that come forward from the industry. In addition, I have been encouraged by the remarks of those who know about forestry. "A forest of opportunity", an article in Accountancy of February 1989, said: Private clients are expressing great interest in woodlands as the full implications of future tax-free income and capital growth have become apparent in an era of lower tax rates and limited tax reliefs".

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, are the Government satisfied that the land that has been sold off will remain under forestry, or are the purchasers entitled to make what use of it they like? Can the Minister be more explicit as to how the Government propose to enforce the guarantees, for example, of public access? Is it not the case that, at least under the law of England, once one has parted with ownership in property one cannot enforce burdens on one's successors? Is that not also the case in Scotland and, if so, how do the Government propose to get round it?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, I said that the Government were looking very carefully at the complex issue of access. What I did not say was that we had an answer to the legal problems that surround this particular issue. I did say, however, that the owners of many private woodlands have an excellent record in allowing public access to those woodlands. Perhaps I may say in addition that when the Forestry Commission, as the forest authority, looks at plans for planting on its lands, reasonable provision for public access is being encouraged and there has been a positive response.

§ Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, is it not possible to include conditions of access in the disposition when the land is sold?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, we have looked very carefully at this particular issue. There are problems relating to access. There are various possible solutions to those problems, but I should not like to go into them at this stage.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister two questions based on his right honourable friend's statement in another place in the middle of June, in which he stated that rationalisation has been a success over the past 10 years. How long does it take to rationalise? I understand that most of the management rationalisation has been done.
In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, the Minister gave figures in respect of land in Forestry Commission ownership which was not plantable or was agricultural land, and indicated that that was the land which was being sold. That does not tie up with the statement of his right honourable friend which referred to the transfer of forests. Who is right and who is wrong?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, perhaps I may answer the question as to what has already been disposed of in the way of forests. As the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Gryfe, mentioned in his original supplementary question, 140,000 hectares of land have been sold, of which 72,000 hectares were forest land. The remaining 68,000 hectares were non-forest land. In the future, one of the ministerial guidelines to which the commission must give heed when selecting properties for sale is the maintenance and development of the wood processing industry.
257 The main raison d'être of the Forestry Commission's enterprise is the production of timber for use by industry. We understand from the commission—and it has agreed—that it will not be in the business of selling core forests, but it has plenty of forest from which to draw for disposal up to the end of the century.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, there is one further point. What does the Minister mean by "forest land"? Is that land that has been planted or land that is plantable?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
Both, my Lords. Basically, it is land that is planted.

Lord Morris
My Lords, bearing in mind that it is far from uncommon for land to be disposed of in the United Kingdom with restrictive convenants attached, will my noble friend explain a little more fully and precisely the legal difficulties facing the Government with regard to the disposal of this land?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, it is a complicated issue and, as I understand it, there are legal problems attached to it. My noble friend may have a solution. I must tell him that we are discussing the matter with great detail within government at the moment and we well understand the desire of most people to ensure that there is adequate public access to private land. However, there are major problems attached to the issue.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, will the noble Lord say precisely where the money which is received for that land goes? Does it go back to the Forestry Commission to enable it to do its job more efficiently? Perhaps the Minister will tell the House precisely where it goes.

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I believe that I have answered the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition before on this matter. The receipts from the disposal programme are surrendered by the commission to the Consolidated Fund.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, since we are told that rationalisation is complete, are we therefore to understand that the increased sales of forestry and forestry land are a result of the Government's dissatisfaction with the work of the Forestry Commission? If they are not dissatisfied with its work, would it not be easier to leave that forestry in its hands and avoid all the legal complications which seem to cause such difficulties?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I believe that the noble Baroness said that rationalisation was complete. That is not something that I have stated from the Dispatch Box. Further rationalisation can take place in the long-term interest of the forestry industry as a whole. I believe that, when we come to the turn of the century, it will be seen that the Forestry Commission, though somewhat reduced in size, will be supplying substantially more timber to the industry than it does at present.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, is the Minister aware that my Question was prompted by the concern expressed in Scotland that some of that land will be sold to be used as sporting estates from which the public will inevitably be excluded? Is he not concerned about that? Is he aware that his statement about the necessity of maintaining wood production will be very much welcomed in Scotland? However, how will he reconcile that with the fact that the Government's planting target is 33,000 hectares, and that total planting of new wood-lands this year will be 11,000 hectares?

§ Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I should like to correct the noble Lord on his figure for new planting this year of 11,000 hectares. It is an interesting figure, but it bears no relation to the facts at this stage, although the noble Lord may have information on the matter that has not come to the Government. So far as concerns the sale in Scotland, the Forestry Commission is well aware that it has the power to dispose of planted land as it sees fit. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord John-Mackie, most of that land is planted with trees at the present time or is available for planting. I should have thought that it will continue as an investment for those in the private sector who are interested in forestry.