Nature Reserves: Management (Hansard, 11 July 1989)

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (The Earl of Caithness)
My Lords, the report recognises that further work is required on a number of important issues. As part of its current programme of work, the council is looking in detail at those sites which it has already identified as potentially suitable for management by others. This council expects to advise the Government formally of the first results of this assessment shortly.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that ad interim reply. Because it is an ad interim reply, will he bear in mind the great concern among nature conservation bodies lest the transfer to private ownership of any of the national nature reserves for which the NCC has a statutory responsibility should result in their being damaged or destroyed? Is he aware that the cause of that concern is the fact that during the past three years at least 500 SSSIs on private land have been damaged or destroyed? Will the Minister therefore say whether the Government intend, before proceeding with any private disposals, to bring forward an amendment to Section 35 of the 1981 Wildlife and Countryside Act? That section places a statutory responsibility on the NCC.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has asked me a number of questions. The first thing to point out is that the NCC is entirely responsible both for the selection and the declaration of NNRs. I am not quite sure therefore what the noble Lord means by statutory responsibility. The NCC is statutorily responsible for all NNRs. The great preponderance of national nature reserves are already in private hands. There are some 235 in the country, whereas those wholly owned by the NCC amount to only 63. That is about 26 per cent.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, is it not a fact that throughout the report the two themes to which the NCC continually draws attention are the shortage of funds for looking after those reserves in its ownership and the shortage of expertise for looking after reserves nationally? Can the Government give an assurance that whatever happens in the far distant future there will immediately be enough funds available to the NCC to carry out its duties satisfactorily during this coming year?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Baroness is, I know, aware, as I hope the House is now aware, that we have increased the funding of the NCC by 150 per cent. in real terms since 1979. That is a substantial increase. Every year we discuss finance with the NCC, but it is up to that body to allocate its programme, having been given the sum of money, as it thinks best.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, with respect, that answer is slightly misleading. Although there has been an increase since 1979—in a 10-year period one would expect an increase—during the present year there has been a 5 per cent. cut in grant to the NCC. That is not very progressive, given the circumstances.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the 150 per cent. increase was in real terms. I am sure that very few of your Lordships would have predicted in 1979 that the NCC would receive such a substantial increase in real terms. However, the amount paid to the NCC continues to go up. Last year it was £38.95 million; this year it is £40.15 million. The job of the NCC is now altering slightly. It has spent many recent years—the noble Baroness knows this full well—renotifying SSSIs. That work is coming to an end; so the programme is shifting.

§ Lord Craigton
My Lords, is the Minister aware that when he refers to a substantial increase it is niggardly in terms of the money that the NCC needs to carry out the job of conservation for this country?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I do not know of a single body with which I have been associated that has not said to me that it does not have enough funds. There has been a substantial increase to the NCC. We are very grateful for the work it has done. It has done a very good job. The future for conservation in this country looks extremely bright.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, does the noble Earl accept that the uncertainty which arises from delay in matters of this kind can be very damaging to sites, as experience has already shown? While we do not wish the wrong decisions to be taken, there comes a time when it is better to have any decision than no decision at all. If final decisions are going to be long delayed, certain interim steps such as those suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, will have to be taken to protect sites.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am not sure what delay the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, is concerned about. Further work is needed on the report. In the meantime the NNRs, most of which are SSSIs or likely to be designated as such, are receiving protection. However, they are the very special sites.

§ Viscount Massereene and Ferrard
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in my opinion hundreds of thousands of landowners carry out many times better work on their own land as regards conservation than the so-called professionals who are paid high sums to do so? Landowners have more practical experience on the whole.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. Of course we appreciate the very valuable work not only of private owners and those who have NNRs on their land but also of some of the voluntary bodies. That is why, out of about 166,000 hectares, some 120,000 are not in NCC hands. They are very well protected under present arrangements.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, why do the Government keep on pretending that private ownership of NNRs and SSSIs is adequate for their protection? Surely the Government themselves, in their very welcome amendments to the Water Bill, recognised that, as regards the disposal of water company land, an offer for the surplus land to go into public ownership is a valuable protection which cannot be provided in private ownership.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I take issue with the noble Lord. We have never said that the private sector cannot do just as good a job as the public sector in this regard. Many of us go to places throughout this lovely country of ours which we thoroughly appreciate and which are in the hands of private owners.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, in the light of these questions will the noble Earl bear in mind that should there be an eventual decision to dispose of any of the 63 nationally owned NNRs—I was talking about the nationally owned NNRs—to private ownership, the nature conservation bodies, which are quite numerous, would be unable to bid for them without additional funds?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, obviously we shall look at that situation if it arises. As the noble Lord knows full well, it is with government approval that the NCC funded the RSPB to buy part of Abernethy Forest.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, the NCC concludes by saying that it hopes that the report will form the basis for discussions. What discussions do the Government intend to initiate and with what bodies?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we have had discussions with the NCC. However, it is an NCC paper and it is right that the NCC should have the discussions rather than the Government.