HL Deb 06 July 1989 vol 509 cc1269-70

Lord McCarthy asked Her Majesty's Government:

When they intend to publish their response to the criticisms of their employment legislation made by the International Labour Organisation's committee of experts.

The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, as requested by the International Labour Organisation (ILO), the United Kingdom Government will be responding to some of the criticisms by November of this year for consideration by the ILO's Committee on Freedom of Association, and to all the criticisms by October 1990 for consideration by the ILO's committee of experts.

Lord McCarthy

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. However, is he aware—or will he deny—that the provisional record of the 76th session of the ILO shows that the committee on the application of standards has in fact criticised the Government on eight counts, for being in breach of ILO conventions? If the Government do not accept that, then the only thing the committee can do is to go to the International Court of Justice. Therefore, what are the Government going to do?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, there was, I think, a report issued in March of this year by the ILO committee of experts recording six points where it criticised the United Kingdom's employment legislation. I should say that the United Kingdom does not accept any of those criticisms, certainly not at first sight. Indeed, at least one of the six points is not even part of the United Kingdom law at present.

Lord Rochester

My Lords, I can understand the Government's reluctance to accept one or two of the criticisms of their legislation by this ILO committee. However, as regards the general question of what is called "the social dimension", would it not be more productive if, instead of denouncing the concept as a whole, the Government aimed to persuade positively our partners in the Community that, for example, in the matter of employee involvement we should follow the practices of our best companies?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me if I suggest that that proposal goes rather wide of the Question to which I am replying. As I say, the ILO committee of experts has recorded six criticisms and it is those to which we shall respond in the forums to which I referred in the main Answer.

Baroness Turner of Camden

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the committee of experts expressed the view that the cumulative effect of various pieces of legislation introduced by this Government since 1988 could, by virtue of their complexity and extent, constitute an incursion upon the rights guaranteed by the constitution? In view of that fact, is it not unwise for the Government to be considering yet further incursions into the role of industrial law as has already been indicated in this Chamber?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, given the fact that we find great difficulty with the position which the ILO's committee of experts has adopted on the six points, I hope that the noble Baroness will agree that her conclusion does not therefore arise.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, can my noble friend say something about this committee of experts? For example, who are the members and in what are they expert?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, as I understand it, it is a committee of experts appointed by the ILO. However, I do not know the names of individual members. But, rather than criticise the personalities involved, we should prefer to take their criticisms on their merits and respond accordingly.

Lord Nugent of Guildford

My Lords, as regards the noble Baroness's point about the Government considering further legislation in this field, is my noble friend aware that the Government would be very much at fault at present, when the country is suffering from these rail strikes, if they were not doing so?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, those of us who experienced difficulties in getting to work yesterday will, I am certain, agree with my noble friend.

Lord McCarthy

My Lords, surely the noble Lord would not deny that the Government's own spokesmen, according to the report of the provisional committee, praised the work of the committee of experts? Indeed, there are three successive committees who have indicted the Government on four occasions. The Government must say, if this continues to happen, whether they will conform to those conventions, or decide that they will go outside of them and line up with such countries as Burma, Panama and Nicaragua.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, we never said that we praised all the work of the committee of experts. As I said, the criticisms which it levelled at us have caused us considerable difficulty.

Back to