HL Deb 26 January 1989 vol 503 cc823-5

3.20 p.m.

Baroness Burton of Coventry asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they have been informed of the decision reached by the British Airports Authority plc and the Civil Aviation Authority on the possible transfer of airport navigation services at BAA's Scottish airports and whether they will make a statement on the present position.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am not aware that agreement has yet been reached between the parties on the future arrangements for approach control and ground movement control services at BAA's Scottish airports. I understand that the air traffic controllers concerned voted against a transfer of these services in a recent ballot.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, is the Minster aware that I am glad that no agreement has yet been reached on the transfer of these services to the British Airports Authority as that will give time for further consideration? The Minister indicated in his reply that there is local anxiety. Is he aware that I raised this matter because of fears expressed both by the CAA and by the ATC staff at Glasgow airport? Does he realise that the main anxiety seems to be that the British Airports Authority has no trained air traffic control engineering staff while the CAA wishes to retain its own skilled manpower? If that is so, where does the British Airports Authority propose to obtain its staff to run these services?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, clearly any transfer of responsibility will have to he carefully planned and carried out on the basis of agreed terms. The agreement would have to make proper provision for future manning, including engineering staff. Maintenance of safety standards would be the overriding consideration. The services would not be licensed if they were not up to scratch.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is not the air traffic control service at these airports perfectly satisfactorily operated at present?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

Yes, my Lords. I think there is no reason to suppose that it is not.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, is it not a fact that if there were any change at the Scottish airports it would need to be dovetailed into the national system? Is it not regrettable that we may have competition between different bodies for these services? Should there not therefore be some national agreement which is missing from the Airports Act 1986 to avoid that?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, one needs to understand that what is at stake here is only the approach and aerodrome navigation services, not the en route traffic control services. I take issue with the noble Lord that we do not want any competition in this area. There is competition as such at the moment. Not all airports use the national air traffic services; for example, Luton and East Midlands. I do not believe that anybody is saying they are unsafe. They use independent or private air traffic controllers, but all staff have to be licensed under the CAA safety regulations group.

Lord Grimond

My Lords, bearing in mind that the Minister said the staff are against this change, can he tell us with whom the ultimate decision will lie and when it may be reached?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, that is a question for the CAA and the BAA to discuss. It is not for the Government to interfere.

Lord Campbell of Croy

My Lords, besides the manning requirements raised by the noble Baroness, is my noble friend satisfied that the British Airports Authority will have the general resources to be able to provide navigational services which are as good as or better than those that exist at present for the main airports in Scotland?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I understand that the proposals involve a transfer of staff from the national air traffic services to the BAA, so the same people would be involved. Those were the proposals which were turned down in the ballot by the staff.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, is the Minister saying, as he did in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Grimond, that should there be failure to gain an amicable agreement between the BAA and the CAA and despite the opposition of the staff employed, the Government have no power at all to intervene and would not intervene?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

No, my Lords. It is a matter between the CAA and the BAA.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, I appreciate what the Minister said. I realise that it is true that he himself has no responsibility and it is for the BAA and the CAA. May the House take it, in view of the comments that have been made this afternoon, that the Minister will see that he is kept informed of what happens and perhaps we may return to the matter when a decision has been reached?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

Certainly, my Lords. Both parties have kept us informed up to now of their discussions and they will continue to do so.