HL Deb 28 February 1989 vol 504 cc938-40

2.57 p.m.

Lord Gainford asked Her Majesty's Government:

What progress had been made towards improving defence co-ordination between the United Kingdom and the Federal Republic of Germany.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, we have recently established a joint study group to suggest ways of further enhancing the close links between our two armed forces within the alliance and giving them greater visibility. I shall circulate a list of their first proposals, now agreed by Ministers, in the Official Report. Meanwhile Ministers look forward to further reports later in the year.

Following are the proposals referred to above:

German army units will come to the United Kingdom beginning this year, for joint training with British units. This will continue in subsequent years on a reciprocal basis.

German service personnel will participate in United Kingdom adventurous training. British personnel will join German forces in activities such as mountain warfare training.

Information on training programmes will be exchanged.

There will be increased exchanges of service personnel.

Opportunities will be made available for German reservists living in the United Kingdom to train with British units.

The technical arrangement for host nation support to British forces in Germany will be finalised urgently.

An affiliation is being established between the Bundeswehr Hospital, Hamburg and the Cambridge Military Hospital, Aldershot.

Plans are in hand to increase public awareness of the close British —German relationship.

Lord Gainford

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that encouraging Answer. Has he any information as to what future plans there may be for co-operation in air defence between this country and the Federal Republic of Germany?

Lord Trefgarne

Yes, my Lords. There is under consideration a plan to enhance air defence around the Royal Air Force station at Gfitersloh in West Germany, which will be jointly manned by United Kingdom and West German personnel. It will use Skyguard radar provided by the Germans and 35 millimeter Oerlikon guns, which your Lordships may be interested to know were captured from the Argentines.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is it the case that the views of the West German Government and of the British Government on the so-called modernisation of nuclear weapons are completely opposite?

Lord Trefgarne

No, my Lords. I can confirm no such thing. We certainly agree with our German friends that we must keep our weapons up to date; that Lance, the weapon system to which I think the noble Lord is referring, will become obsolete in 1995; and that there can be no third zero.

Lord Irving of Dartford

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that modernisation, to which he has been referring, is contrary to the spirit of the INF treaty? Is he also aware that Chancellor Kohl cannot agree, in my view, to modernisation before the next general election in Germany because the German people do not want replacement of those weapons? Therefore, would it not be more fruitful and productive if the Government directed their energies towards helping NATO to respond to the many initiatives that Mr. Gorbachev has put before that organisation in the past two years? In other words, is it not time for negotiation and not modernisation?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am certain that Chancellor Kohl will be very grateful for the noble Lord's advice on how to improve his prospects in the forthcoming election in Germany. The fact of the matter is that the Lance system, to which I have referred, is nothing to do with the INF treaty which related to intermediate range systems and not short range systems.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that quite apart from the political factor in Germany, Chancellor Kohl's objections to deploying a replacement for Lance are very widely shared by others, including the French Government? Would the Government not do better to refrain from pressing the Germans to accept the principle of deployment even before the replacement is on the drawing board?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, as I said earlier, the present system—the Lance system—will become obsolete somewhere in the mid-1990s and therefore needs to be modernised or replaced by that time. The reason for this is that the short range systems play an indispensable part in NATO's flexible response strategy.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, will the working party referred to by the Minister of State—the Anglo-German working party—also cover nuclear questions? And will the Minister, when the working party publishes its first report, publish a list of its members and their respective jobs?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the working party to which I referred is not specifically directed towards nuclear matters, but rather to enhancing the close links between our two armed forces within the alliance and to giving them greater visibility. As regards publishing the names of those who represent the respective sides on the working party, I shall have to give that matter some consideration.

Viscount Mersey

My Lords, can my noble friend kindly update the House on the German attitude towards low flying aircraft?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, those of us who occasionally hear low flying jet aircraft have every reason to understand the problems which our German friends are experiencing because of the disturbance such aeroplanes cause. Nonetheless, it is undoubtedly the case that our respective air forces—I am including the German Air Force—must train themselves to counter the threats which they could face. That, I am afraid, includes carrying out quite a large amount of low-level flying training. However, we certainly agree that such training ought to be carried out at minimum disturbance to those concerned.

Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran

My Lords, is the noble Lord in a position to say a word about the coordination of tank production between the United Kingdom and the Federal Republic of Germany?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the fact is that the two or three initiatives towards producing a collaborative tank have not so far borne fruit. Nonetheless, we hope very much that the next generation of British army tank, which will come after the one we plan to procure in the near future, will indeed be a collaborative venture.