HL Deb 21 February 1989 vol 504 cc584-91

7.37 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (Lord Lyell) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 14th November 1988 be approved.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, The amending order has as its main purpose the creation of a new single body to advise the department on matters relating to both nature conservation and the countryside. The new body will be known as the Council for Nature Conservation and the Countryside.

Your Lordships may remember that when the draft of the Nature Conservation and Amenity Lands (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 was published there was considerable discussion on the administrative structure for conservation in Northern Ireland. At that time Dr. Jean Balfour was asked by my honourable friend Mr. Chris Patten to produce recommendations as to the best way forward. Dr. Balfour favoured a single advisory body instead of the two existing committees. It is fair to say, however, that the concept of an independent body which would have executive powers also had a considerable degree of support.

The respective merits of each approach were weighed very carefully, and while the creation of a separate organisation which would express its own views had advantages it was ultimately decided that, given the size of Northern Ireland, Dr. Balfour's line was the correct one and more could be achieved by an advisory body working within the departmental framework. However, the new advisory council will be free to express the conservation view on any issue and will have the ability to be legally represented at any public inquiry. I feel that giving the council both an independent voice and the ability to influence thinking within the department at an early stage takes the best of the features from each of the possible approaches.

The operation of the new council will be kept under review and I have no doubt that it in turn will monitor the progress of conservation within Northern Ireland. For our part we share the pleasure of my colleague Mr. Needham that Professor Palmer Newbould and Mr. Robert Hanna have accepted the posts of chairman and deputy chairman. The proven records of both those gentlemen in the field of conservation will be enhanced by the wide range of interests and experience represented by the remaining 18 members of the council.

As well as assuming the functions of the two existing advisory committees, the Ulster Countryside Committee and the Committee for Nature Conservation, the council will undertake the additional tasks of advising the department on the payment of grants to voluntary bodies and on promotional and educational activities. The ability to be represented legally at public inquiries which the council will have was another significant aspect of Dr. Balfour's recommendations. Like the existing bodies the council will be able to create subcommittees to advise it in specific areas as well as to appoint to these sub-committees persons who are not members of the council. We believe that this process will enable the widest available range of expertise to be tapped by the council.

The conservation service will supply the council's secretariat and provision for this has already been made. Following Dr. Balfour's report a substantial number of additional senior posts were provided in the conservation service itself with corresponding increases at more junior grades. The staffing resources needed by the service are kept under constant review and additional posts added as the need arises. The council will be able to provide advice on the whole range of resources required.

I now turn briefly to a matter which received prominence during the debate in your Lordships' House as well as in another place in 1985. This relates to areas of special scientific interest. Your Lordships will see that in Article 10(1) in the order before us this evening, the word "may" in Article 24(1) of the 1985 order is replaced by the word "shall". Your Lordships will find that at page 18 at the top. The effect of this will be to make it mandatory for the department to declare a site as an area of special scientific interest where the department is satisfied that it is of special scientific interest and that it needs to be specially protected. This amendment is being made in accordance with an undertaking which I gave to your Lordships in February 1985.

There is one other aspect of the draft order which I would like to bring to your Lordships' attention this evening. Your Lordships will note that a second paragraph has been added to Article 10 since the consultation process. Article 10(2)(a) involves an amendment to Article 25 (1) of the 1985 order which would enable the department to issue what we call consents to notifiable operations in areas of special scientific interest where consent to carry out such operations has not been sought by the landowner in writing. This amendment would enable the department to take the initiative in issuing consents when it was aware of the landowner's wishes. This proposal would lessen the amount of paperwork required from the landowner and it would have the valuable effect of smoothing the practical operation of the legislation. I want to make it clear that the department would still have to give its consent in writing.

I have concentrated on those aspects of the order which I consider to be most important. I will attempt to answer any points that your Lordships wish to raise on it. I commend the order to your Lordships, and I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 14th November 1988 be approved.— (Lord Lyell.)

7.45 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for explaining the purpose of the order. I also take this opportunity to thank the Department of the Environment for Northern Ireland for the explanatory memorandum and for the letter of 25th October last about the outcome of the public consultation on the terms of the first draft order. Plainly, by setting up a single Council for Nature Conservation and the Countryside to take the place of the existing Committee for Nature Conservation and the existing Ulster Countryside Committee, the order gives effect to one of the major recommendations made in 1984 by Dr. Jean Balfour in her report to Ministers.

Northern Ireland has now reached an important milestone with this order. We are pleased that advantage has been taken of this reorganisation to confer a few additional powers on the new body. We note that about a quarter of the respondents to the original draft order thought that the new council should have even more powers. I make note of their response. The council will have a membership of 20 instead of 14 as originally envisaged. I am particularly pleased that it will have power to appoint committees whose members, apart from two, need not be members of the council. That should be very helpful in involving more people in the work of the council.

I listened as carefully as I could to the Minister's explanation of Article 10(2). It seems to be a tricky article, but the wording is acceptable. What is more important is that it is acceptable to the people in Northern Ireland. With this new machinery in place the department will be in a far stronger position to ensure the preservation and conservation of the countryside in Northern Ireland. We have been told that the order will not involve the employment of additional staff and that it will not lead to any significant increase in public expenditure. The Minister will know that this will be a disappointment for some organisations which have been pressing for additional resources to be committed to this important work.

We are pleased that in Article 10(11) the order honours the undertaking given by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, to the House in February 1985. It has taken some time to honour the undertaking but here we are at long last when the word "may" has been replaced by the word "shall". We welcome the change. It will now be mandatory for the department to designate that a site is an area of special scientific interest where it is satisfied that it is so and needs to be specially protected. May the department comply with that injunction. Moreover, it is felt that much more effort is required to protect sites of special scientific interest in Northern Ireland. One knows that the department will have heard the plea of the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds on this issue. We welcome this order.

Conservation is not just about landscape, hills, lakes and coastlines. It is also about people who live in towns and villages in Northern Ireland and their appreciation and enjoyment of the landscape and of the beauty of nature. We wish the chairman and the members of the new council every success in the important work which they are undertaking as trustees for the people of Northern Ireland.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I thank the Minister for outlining the details of this order to the House. I also thank my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies for his usual analytical and very thorough examination of the matters before us. I believe that he has covered most of the points that I would wish to have dealt with. In welcoming and supporting the order perhaps I may use shipbuilders' jargon. The legislation has been a long time on the stocks. The order is a very modest piece of legislative change. Perhaps the Minister can explain why it has taken such a lengthy period to produce such a simple advisory measure.

I wholeheartedly agree with my noble friend that conservation and the protection of the countryside and wildlife are issues of urgent public concern. The essence of the order was discussed at length in the Northern Ireland Assembly some six years ago, and, as the Minister explained, we have had the Balfour Report. From reading both the Assembly debate and the Balfour Report it is clear to me that the order falls far short of the expectations of the various interests and the relevant voluntary working groups that took such a positive and lively part in the Balfour review. However, on a more helpful note, this order is viewed by many as a beginning. I know that many of those with an active interest in nature conservation, wildlife and the future for rural life in the Province are anxious to give every support to the order and to the proposed council.

I have known members of the two existing advisory committees—the Committee for Nature Conservation and the Ulster Countryside Committee. These organisations have done excellent work over the years and should be thanked for their dedication. I wholeheartedly concur with the Minister's remarks about the appointment of Professor Palmer Newbould as chairman designate and Mr. Robert Hanna as deputy chairman. Both are highly respected in Northern Ireland for their great expertise and knowledge in this field.

The future success of the new council will depend not on the detailed legislative measures before us but on the effectiveness of the relationship between the council, the Department of the Environment and the Department of Agriculture. The relationship can be greatly strengthened by making available to the council administrative resources to help it to perform its functions. It is important that suitable numbers of skilled, trained staff are available within the various sectors of the department to implement the agreed proposals and conservation needs identified by the council.

The Minister and my noble friend referred to the staff. The order does not contemplate further measures in that connection. I hope that this will be open to review at some stage. The need for additional staff will require urgent attention if the conservation measures are to go ahead. I could make comparisons with the position in Great Britain. However, at this time of the evening I shall not continue in that vein.

Can the Minister explain in a little more detail a point arising in Part I of the schedule? It says that, The Department may appoint a person to be the Secretary to the Council. In his opening remarks he said that secretarial and other help will be given to the council to carry on its work. I hope that, in co-operation with the council, the department will provide suitable secretarial assistance and facilities. Are we to have an annual report from the council, and will it be made available to both Houses of Parliament? It is important that we should have a review from time to time of what is happening.

The department has issued planning guidelines. The Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland should be praised for preparing guidance to the planning service on nature conservation matters. This guidance will play a helpful role in establishing ground rules for planners and developers. Will the Minister draw to the attention of his honourable friend Mr. Needham the request that the guidance should be publicly and freely available, as happens in Great Britain? With those remarks, I support the order.

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, this sensible rationalisation is to be welcomed but I would respectfully ask the Minister how much attention will be paid to those public spirited, well informed, civilised people who are to sit on the new council. Is the noble Lord aware of the frustration experienced by members of councils such as the Historic Buildings Council. They make recommendations and the department goes ahead and does exactly what it was going to do anyway. How much clout will the new council have?

I can envisage that people under the chairmanship of Professor Newbould, people who have every desire to contribute towards the preservation, conservation and improvement of the countryside and its natural resources, may become frustrated. Will they be listened to and will they be effective in what they say? Will they be able to overview the activities of departments which seem to be able to bypass planning restrictions and controls? I think in particular of the Northern Ireland electricity service which seems to be able to move in and erect poles for power lines wherever it wants, irrespective of the desire of the landowner. The planning office is unable to exercise control over that. Will the new council have some influence in such matters?

Not only areas of outstanding natural beauty and of special scientific interest are valuable. The whole of our countryside in Northern Ireland is valuable and must be preserved. I respectfully suggest that the council should have an input in relation to the entire countryside of Northern Ireland and should be able to influence decisions made with regard to electricity poles, road building and developments of that kind. Having said that, I believe the new council is to be welcomed.

Lord Harris of Greenwich

My Lords, I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State is to have a single advisory body rather than two. That must make sense. On the other hand, I very much share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath. The advisory council will play an effective part in discharging its responsibilities only if Ministers pay decent regard to its recommendations. I am not asking that every recommendation should be automatically accepted—that is going far too far—but if its views are consistently ignored there would be a substantial danger of a crisis of morale in the new body.

I should like to raise two further points. First, I welcome the fact that the new council will have the right to be legally represented at public inquiries. I think that that is a very important power. Indeed, I welcome that unreservedly. However, I shall be grateful if the Minister can deal for a few moments with a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, regarding the resources available to the council. It is all very well to say that there will be no significant increase in public expenditure, but obviously one wants some guarantee from the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, that the council will have adequate resources in order to carry out its responsibilities. Of course without such resources it clearly will not succeed.

Following on from that particular point, I should like to refer to remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Blease, about Part I of the schedule. He raised the issue of the secretary of the council. I assume that the person appointed will be a member of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, but no doubt the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong. However, one important consideration is this. Will the new chairman and deputy chairman be consulted before the official is appointed? I think it would be quite wrong to, so to speak, impose an official—however admirable that official might be without the clear approval of the new chairman and deputy chairman of the council. Having said that, I must say that I very much welcome the order and I do so unreservedly.

8 p.m.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, for my part, I welcome the nice words which have been said about the order and I also welcome the very close attention which has been paid to it by your Lordships. I reiterate once again that the order is fulfilling an undertaking which I gave four years and a week or so ago in this House.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, to whom I am most grateful for his close attention, mentioned two points so far as concerns Article 10. I think that he would agree that both paragraphs (1) and (2) and the combination of the two items in paragraph 10, deal with consents, as I put it, and use the word "shall" as opposed to the word "may". I believe that that is a major improvement. The noble Lord was also concerned about the council having adequate or more powers. We believe that giving the council the power to appoint such experts as it may want to give it special advice in special circumstances provides it with all the flexibility it could want.

The noble Lord had one particular query about the council concerning additional staff. I wish to stress to him, and to the noble Lords, Lord Blease and Lord Harris of Greenwich, that, while extra staff are not needed because of the creation of the new council per se, the needs of the conservation service are monitored very closely and on a regular basis. I assure the House, and all noble Lords who have spoken, that additional staff have been provided when necessary. I certainly believe and undertake that that will be the process in the future.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, asked about the secretary of the council and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, also raised that matter. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Blease, will certainly know—and I hope also that the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, will accept—that conservation in Northern Ireland is the responsibility of my department, the Department of Agriculture and, to a much greater extent, the Department of the Environment. The whole world of conservation in Northern Ireland is the concern both of government and of the towns and villages. I dare not give an accurate figure to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, but I think that it is extremely likely that the secretary of the council will be known. I am most confident that the secretary will meet with the approval of both Professor Newbould and Mr. Hanna. However, I shall undertake to bring that point to the attention of my right honourable friend the Minister.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, asked about available resources. In addition to the close ties which the council will have with the staff of the conservation service, two posts have been created specifically to provide a full-time secretariat for the council. I wish to assure all your Lordships that fully adequate measures and resources will be provided to service the new council.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, also raised a query as regards the resources needed to carry out the work of the countryside and wildlife branch. The number of senior posts has risen in the period since the Balfour Report was received—a little over four years ago— from five to 10. Moreover, at the more junior level, there has been a net increase of 17 persons. All the scientific staff engaged in the nature and countryside conservation work are suitably qualified. Moreover, they have another immensely valuable quality; namely, huge enthusiasm. Certainly from my observations of everyone involved in the conservation service, both in my own department and elsewhere, the qualifications are very impressive, but the enthusiasm on top of that is even more noteworthy.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, had a further query about the period of consultation. Many major points were raised during the consultation and I hope that the noble Lord will accept that we felt we should take into account all those points and attempt to have the order before us this evening in the best possible shape.

The noble Lord also asked about the annual report. This will certainly be considered in conjunction with the chairman. I do not think that it will necessarily happen every year, but certainly the report will be taken care of every three years. If the noble Lord, or any other Member of your Lordships' House, wished to ask me for information I am sure that I could provide it either in this place or through other channels.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, quite rightly raised one or two queries about how much attention would be paid to the council. He of all people will know that neither Professor Newbould nor Mr. Robert Hanna are known for being shrinking violets. Indeed, both are frequent visitors not only to my office in the Department of Agriculture—and very welcome visitors on a regular basis—but they are also very well-known and regular visitors to the Department of the Environment.

I stress to the noble Lord that the council will have major input into all aspects of conservation. I shall reply to one specific point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dunleath. Under the Nature Conservation and Amenity Lands (Northern Ireland) Order 1985, the Northern Ireland electricity service, and all similar statutory undertakers are required to take into account the needs of the countryside and nature conservation.

1 was pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, approved of legal representation at public inquiries. That is certainly one important aspect of how we see the new council working. I hope that I have given him a sufficient undertaking as regards the resources that we see as being available for the council to carry out its work. However, we believe that, more than those resources, the flexibility of the human resources will enable it to carry out specific and urgent tasks by appointing persons who are not members of the council to serve and give specialist advice on sub-committees.

I hope that I have covered all the points raised by noble Lords, and I am most grateful for the attention which has been paid to the order. However, if I have missed any points, I shall certainly write to the noble Lords concerned.

On Question, Motion agreed to.