Universities Funding Council: Composition (Hansard, 14 February 1989)

§ Viscount Davidson
Yes, my Lords.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, in the Answer to a Written Question which I put down before Christmas, the noble Viscount said that the Universities Funding Council would consist of six full-time university academics, one polytechnic director and six members with industrial or commercial experience. I was asked to put down this Question by one of the universities with which I am associated. Is the noble Viscount satisfied that the council will not be dominated by commercial interests? Secondly, how is it that no member of the council can rightly be classified as a social scientist?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I am not prepared to discuss the merits of individual appointments. However, the overall aim has been to achieve a reasonable balance and I believe we have achieved that.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the noble Viscount answer my second question? Why is there no social scientist on this important body?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I have to give the same answer.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, while accepting that the list of members is a very distinguished one, I note that England and Scotland are very well represented but there is no university representative specifically from Wales. There is a well-known Welsh professor whom I greatly admire on the list of members but he is resident and stationed in England. Can the noble Viscount say why no Welsh representative has been appointed?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, the UFC will have statutory advisory committees for Scotland and Wales, to be chaired by Sir Donald McCallum and Professor Gareth Roberts respectively.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I am aware of that and I appreciate it. However, while there are eminent members of English and Scottish universities on the committee there is no comparable person from 62 the Welsh universities on it. Why is that? Why is Wales constantly neglected by the Government in this way?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I do not know. I have every sympathy with the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition. But even if the council were much larger, some interests would doubtless still feel excluded. The council was deliberately kept to 15 members in order to help ensure effective working. This follows the recommendation of the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Croham, and is now provided for in the Education Reform. Act which your Lordships spent so much time debating last summer.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Viscount is in a difficult position, but will he be good enough to have a word with his noble friend Lord Trefgarne?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I am always prepared to have a word with my noble friend Lord Trefgarne.

§ Lord Butterworth
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Croham Committee envisaged that an executive committee should be set up under the council and that academic interests would be represented on it? The committee would be responsible for setting the recommendations on financial matters which we hope would encapsulate the highest academic standards.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Butterworth. As vice-chairman of the Croham Committee he knows a; much as, if not more than, most of your Lordships on the subject. I think I can add that the council will be able to take as much expert and other advice as it wishes in deciding on grants allocations and in framing advice to the Government. It has explicit powers under the Act to establish committees which may include non-members.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, is there any overlap between the membership of the Universities Funding Council and the Polytechnics and Colleges Funding Council? It would seem sensible if each of those councils knew what the other was doing.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, among the points taken into account when setting up the UFC were the need to balance academic disciplines in the area of non-academic expertise and the need for cross-membership with the polytechnics and colleges sector.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, does the Minister, in his confidence in the new council, agree that as a first step to establishing its confidence more widely it should stop the abuse of university time by sending round silly questionnaires? Those questionnaires are designed by people with no understanding of how universities operate and they take away time that should be devoted to teaching and research.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I do not think that is a question for me to answer. All I can say is that the Government have full confidence in the membership of the council to get to grips with the challenges it will face when it takes on its full responsibilities from 1st April.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that many of the colleges of the University of Wales are concerned about this matter? Will he ask his right honourable friend whether he will be gracious enough to get in touch with the vice-chancellor of the University of Wales to see whether some help and provision can be provided along the lines outlined by my noble friend Lord Cledwyn?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I shall certainly pass on the question of the noble Lord.

§ Baroness White
My Lords, will the noble Viscount let us know what is the relationship of the two chairmen of the advisory committees for Scotland and for Wales respectively with the funding council? Will they be members thereof or will they have any right of audience or direct access?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I do not have the answer to that question, but I shall certainly write to the noble Baroness.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, regardless of the composition of the council, how independent will it be in giving advice from the Department of Education and Science or any other government department?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, it will be quite independent.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, the stupid questionnaires to which the noble Lord, Lord Beloff, referred have their origin in the Department of Education and Science. That department totally backs them as its system of staff appraisal. However, I ask the noble Viscount to return to the original Question. It is a serious matter when some quarter of all undergraduates study social studies and business but those subjects are not represented at all on the Universities Funding Council. Will the noble Viscount at least draw to the attention of his right honourable friend the Secretary of State the fact that that scale of omission is rather serious?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, as I have already said, the council was limited to 15 members. It is always likely that some specialties will feel excluded. But its composition followed the recommendation of the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Croham. That is how the legislation was drafted.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, will the noble Viscount tell the House how many of the six representatives of commercial and industrial interests are members of companies which give subventions to the Conservative Party?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, I think that is another question.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, the noble Viscount said that some specialties will be excluded. However, a speciality which covers no less than 25 per cent. of students is surely in a rather special position. For that number to be excluded is not acceptable.

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, all the representatives of the academics will be on the sub-committees. They will give advice to the council.

§ Lord Annan
My Lords, is it not a fact that this insistence upon representing every interest has led to the constitutions of universities being overloaded by vast committees which are then incapable of taking executive action?

§ Viscount Davidson
My Lords, the noble Lord has a very good point. I wish I had thought of that.