Iraq: Trade Relations (Hansard, 14 December 1989)

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, maintaining trade relations with Iraq is not incompatible with the vigorous pursuit of the issues referred to by the noble Lord. We continue to give our full support to the United Nations Secretary General in his efforts to achieve early implementation of Security Council Resolution 598 in its entirety. This expressly calls for the release of prisoners of war. The Iraqi Government are in no doubt of our concerns over the British detainee, Mrs. Parish, and over Iraq's human rights record.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that Answer. However, will the Government do their very best to achieve a concerted policy with our European Community partners and in other international groupings so that there is some consistency in diplomatic representation and in trade policy not only with Iraq but also with certain other Middle Eastern countries that have a deplorable human rights record?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the difficulty is that consistency would mean the same policy in the same circumstances. The problem is that the circumstances are never the same. It is also the case that we are a major trading nation. I am afraid that we have to do business with a number of countries with whose policies we very often disagree.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is it not the case that Iraq has an appalling record on human rights and that it is responsible for killing, torturing and imprisoning thousands of Kurds and members of opposition parties? It has imprisoned two British citizens and has not responded to representations made by the Government and others. Is it not further the case that the Government sell arms to this country and give it export credit? What kind of standards are the Government adhering, to in these circumstances?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we do not sell arms to Iraq. As the noble Lord will be aware, the sale of such items to Iraq and Iran is subject to very close guidelines. Therefore, arms would most certainly not be supplied in present circumstances. There are in fact two British people in prison in Iraq one of whom is a Mrs. Parish. So far she has not been charged and, of course, we believe that she should either be charged or released. We have experienced some difficulty in gaining consular access to Mrs. Parish. However, access was granted on 4th December and we are now looking to the Iraqi authorities to grant continued access.
The other British person in prison in Iraq is Mr. Richter. He was convicted three or four years ago of an offence in that country. However, we believe that the time has come for his release on humanitarian grounds.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, while I appreciate that this country is a trading nation and that trading is essential to us in so many ways, is not the price that we are paying too high? Moreover, should we not observe the principles involved?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I do not think that closing off trading relations in these circumstances would in any way serve the objectives which the noble Lord and I share; namely, an improvement in the human rights situation in that country and a proper observance of all the legal procedures, for example, in respect of the people to whom I referred. I believe that maintaining trade relations helps in that direction. Indeed, during the recent Anglo-Iraqi Commission, which I chaired on behalf of the United Kingdom, I lost no opportunity in conveying our views on such matters to the Iraqi Minister who came to represent his government.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, are not all nations trading nations? Further, if trade is to be put above human rights or ordinary human decencies, then, presumably, we can say goodbye to any rule of law or anything like it in international society. Therefore, do not the Government realise that there is a clear contradiction between saying that we must give credits to Iraq and then saying that we totally disapprove of their internal form of government?

§ Lord Trefgarne
No, my Lords; the reverse is the case. I think that if we cut off our trading relations with these countries, as with others, we would lose many opportunities to convey our views on other matters which are, I agree, of great importance.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, has my noble friend the Minister secured through his contacts with Iraq any confirmation of the view held in the United States that Iraq has recently developed a very lethal long-range missile with Chinese aid, together with aid from others, and that this now constitutes a new threat to the stability of the whole region?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I have heard the rumours to which my noble friend refers, but I am afraid that I cannot confirm them.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is it not the case that if the Government had made the release of these two prisoners conditional upon the issue of credits they would in all probability have been released and the issue of credits could still have gone ahead?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, if I may say so, that is a totally unproven assertion. The fact of the matter is that I was able to make strong representations to the Iraqi Minister about, for example, Mrs. Parish. Moreover, I am not sure that it was total coincidence that consular access was granted shortly thereafter.

§ Lord Kilbracken
My Lords, will the Minister agree that the persecution of the Kurdish people, including the use of poison gas, certainly constitutes genocide as defined by the United Nations? Therefore would it not be preferable for the Government to impose trade sanctions upon Iraq, instead of extending credits to that bankrupt dictatorship?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am afraid I must say that trade sanctions or economic sanctions, or, indeed, both of them together, have hardly ever in 1400 the whole of history generated the result which was expected by those who imposed them. I believe that the way in which to secure an improvement in human rights matters, not only in Iraq but also elsewhere, is by constant persuasion and example; and not by sanctions which, as I said, have never ever worked.

§ Lord Rugby
My Lords, the Question refers to "new credits" of £250 million. However, can the Minister tell the House what are the total credits?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the credits to Iraq, as to other countries which enjoy the benefit of ECGD facilities, are generally renewed on an annual basis and are subject to what is called a "market limit". However, I am afraid that the market limits are not normally published.

§ Lord Carr of Hadley
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the policy which he has just been defending, whether right or wrong, is the policy consistently pursued by all British Governments of all parties for as long as I can remember?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, my noble friend's memory goes back a little further than mine. However, this was certainly the policy of all the Administrations which I can remember.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, will the Minister and his colleagues continue to press for the release, or the charging, of Mr. Bazoft who is a British protected journalist?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we shall certainly do all we can for Mr. Bazoft. As the noble Lord said, he was a journalist working, I think, for the Observer newspaper. I believe that he was arrested with Mrs. Parish. However, Mr. Bazoft does not have a British passport. As I understand it, he is travelling on a travel document issued by the United Kingdom because his own passport cannot be renewed. We shall certainly do all we can for him, but I fear that because of his slightly unusual position there will not be a great deal that we can accomplish.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is the Minister aware that while his Government are guaranteeing these credits to Iraq, the Iraqi Administration have found the hard currency to buy into the most important British machine tool firm, through the Belgians, in order to obtain the wherewithal to supply the missiles mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Beloff? Is he also aware that they are able to do so despite the fact that they are supposed to be bankrupt?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I do not think that there is any suggestion that they are bankrupt. The fact of the matter is that Iraq is sitting on oil reserves second only to those in Saudi Arabia. Indeed, I think that that makes it the second largest possessor of oil reserves in the world. Regarding their intervention in United Kingdom companies, of course they are entitled to do what is within our law; but not that which is without it.