HL Deb 13 December 1989 vol 513 cc1300-2

3 p.m.

Lord Hooson asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will, as a matter of urgency, look at the structure of local government to determine whether there is now a case for a national system of single tier local government based largely on the district councils.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Lord Hesketh)

My Lords, we do not intend to commission a study of the structure of local government. As my honourable friend the Minister for Local Government and Inner Cities recently told the Association of County Councils centenary conference, We certainly have no intention of embarking on any major re-organisation of the structure of local government".

Lord Hooson

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is now generally recognised that the 1972 reforms were a mistake and that much of local government is now administered over too large an area and by authorities that are too remote?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, it is fair to say that the Government have introduced a number of reforms since 1979. I can only draw to the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, the words of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State who said that as a pragmatist he believed that another reorganisation was something that we needed like a hole in the head, and that reorganisation is not on the agenda.

Lord Wallace of Coslany

My Lords, will the Minister explain why, after government action, local government in London is entirely different from that of the rest of the country?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, to an extent the local government of London has always been different from that of the rest of the country.

Lord Bottomley

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the proposal about local government made by the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, is one of the wisest for a long time? I urge him to press his colleagues seriously to consider the matter. As one who served on a district council for 20 years, I can speak with some knowledge and authority. I would go so far as to say that the ratepayers under that system received a better service than they have ever received.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, all I believe that it would be fair to say is that a considerable element of reform has taken place during the past decade. Many in local government—and this was particularly so when I was at the Guildhall last night—are happy to consider the prospect of calm waters and a peaceful future ahead.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, is the Minister aware that while there is a great deal to be said for district councils, they are unsuitable for functions such as governing London? One of the great defects that we have instituted by what the Minister calls "reform" is that the capital has no body which is responsible for it as a whole. Will he therefore look again at that question? Since the Tory Government abolished the late-lamented London County Council, have we not been without a body responsible for London as a whole? That need is noticed by every citizen of London every day that we live.

Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone

My Lords, I did not notice it this morning.

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, the Question on the Order Paper goes rather wider than the capital. I suggest that the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, concerns the possibility of introducing a single tier of local government. We believe that for the average man in the street, albeit on the Clapham omnibus, the county is still something with which he identifies more closely than any other part of local government.

Lord Winstanley

My Lords, do the calm waters and peaceful future to which the Minister just referred include the provision of community care?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, that question goes rather wider than the Question that lies on the Order Paper.

Lord Monkswell

My Lords, we shall all have been interested in the Minister's response when he said that everyone, including the passenger on the Clapham omnibus, appreciates the benefits of the county council. When is it proposed to reintroduce the metropolitan county councils, which include the GLC and the large metropolitan counties that existed before the 1985 Act?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I am sure that when the noble Lord comes to read the Official Report he will see that my answer was couched in terms of the suggestion that the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, might have been referring to a single tier of government.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, the competition for the ministerial under-statement of 1989 is still open. The Minister has made a valiant attempt to close it with the statement that a number of reforms have been made over the past 10 years. Does he agree that all those reforms have tended to weaken local government in favour of central government? Does he agree that the reform that is required—although we do not dissent from the view of the noble Lord, Lord Hooson—is to give local government wider powers and greater relevance to people's lives?

Lord Hesketh

My Lords, I believe that government should provide a form of institution with the least possible inconvenience to the public, which is an approach slightly different from that taken by the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh.

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