Hong Kong Refugees: Repatriation (Hansard, 6 December 1989)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, talks with Vietnam are still continuing on the detailed final arrangements for involuntary repatriation. The procedures which will be used are in line with those applied world-wide in removing persons refused permission to remain. I am confident that the Vietnamese authorities will find these unobjectionable.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, is the Minister saying that the British Government do not believe what the Vietnamese Government say? The Vietnamese Government have stated—have they not?—that they will not accept forcibly repatriated refugees from Hong Kong. Have the Government any contingency plans should the Vietnamese Government live up to their word?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the position of the Vietnamese Government has not changed. They have consistently stated their objection to forcible repatriation and therefore there is no change in that situation.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is it not the case that the British Government ceased to pay aid to Vietnam in 1979 because of its human rights record? Is the Minister now certain that the record in Vietnam is good enough to merit forcible repatriation? If that is the case, are the Government now prepared to renew bilateral aid?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, there is no question of any boat people being returned to 860 Vietnam without assurances from the Vietnamese that they will not be punished or persecuted and that their conditions on return can be monitored. Those who have voluntarily returned to date have been monitored by the UNHCR and there have been no complaints whatever. On the question of aid, as I said recently we do not rule out reintegration assistance as part of a comprehensive repatriation programme.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, for the purposes of understanding the reply, will the noble Lord confirm that he and the Government are saying that the Vietnamese human rights record is now better than it was in 1979 and that this justifies forcible repatriation?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we are certainly concerned—we always have been, because this is a most important aspect of involuntary repatriation—that there should be monitoring of those people who are returned. We are satisfied that the conditions in Vietnam are adequate for their return and that those who have already returned are not being ill-treated. We wish to continue monitoring that.

The Lord Bishop of Manchester
My Lords, will the Minister go a little further on the matter of aid? Will he not agree that it is not simply a matter of aid linked to the numbers who are repatriated but also the general economic conditions in Vietnam as a whole? Whatever may be the policies and deficiences of the policies of the present Government there, the fact is that it is basically a very poor country which has been put under great pressure by Western powers, particularly the United States. What do the Government propose to do about that?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the Vietnamese Government may have been put under pressure by some places. They have not done a great deal to improve their own economic circumstances by some of the policies that they have pursued over the years. They do not exactly encourage investment and that is why so many of their citizens have chosen to leave the country.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, does not my noble friend agree that one of the contributions that the Government could make is to be more forceful in regard to other nations which are critical of what this Government are doing and to persuade them to make a contribution themselves to alleviate some of the problems that have arisen?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the problem is that no other country in the world is prepared to accept any of these people who have not been screened out as regards genuine refugee status. The Geneva Conference in June therefore came to the conclusion that there was no other option for them—other than to stay in Hong Kong, which would be completely unsatisfactory—than to return to their own country.

§ Lord Parry
My Lords, if the monitoring system that is followed eventually shows that returning Vietnamese people are ill-treated in their country, what could the Government then do about that?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we should obviously then have to look again at the question of sending any more back. We should have to accept the assurances from the Vietnamese that they were treating properly those who had already returned, and that would be monitored. I have no reason to suppose that they will not be treated properly.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, some noble Lords are a little confused about the two answers given by the Minister to my noble friend. He said in the first place that negotiations were continuing with the Vietnamese Government. He then said that the Vietnamese Government had not moved from their position of refusing to accept forcibly repatriated refugees. The second question my noble friend asked was: in that case what contingency plans do the Government have? Can he answer that question now?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I said in my original Answer—and I think I covered the point—talks with Vietnam are still continuing on the detailed final arrangements for involuntary repatriation. The views of the Vietnamese have always been clear on the subject of the use of force, but we have no reason to suppose that the normal procedures to which I referred—those which are in line with those applied world-wide in removing persons refused permission to remain—will be found objectionable by the Vietnamese Government.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, can the Minister say whether plans for monitoring the return of these refugees is being included in the discussions with the Vietnamese?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
Yes, my Lords. The Vietnamese are content that we should monitor the return of the refugees. Our aim is to encourage the UNHCR to do so, but in the first instance our embassy will monitor the returnees. We shall then work on longer-term arrangements.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I ask the Minister to clarify one issue that I believe is worrying the House following on the Question put by the noble Lord, Lord Bonham-Carter. If the Vietnamese Government refuse to accept those who are forcibly repatriated, what is going to happen to them if they are refused entry into Vietnam? Is it the Government's policy that there will be no forcible repatriation to Vietnam if the Vietnamese Government refuse to accept refugees?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, obviously if the Vietnamese consider that the measures that are used to return these people involve the use of force—that is not our intention as I said in my original Answer—we shall use procedures that are in line with those which are applied worldwide in these 862 kinds of cases. It is a matter on which we have to deal with the Vietnamese Government.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, would the Minister explain the mysterious words, "we shall adopt procedures that are in line with"? What are those procedures?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, these are standard procedures employed by Western countries to remove persons who are refused permission to remain in the country. They are often used for the return of illegal immigrants around the world.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, what are those procedures?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not think I can go any further.

§ Lord Rea
My Lords, would not a sensible approach to this problem be for the Government to attempt to work out a package with the Vietnamese Government so that they will be able to accept back their citizens in return for economic aid which will help to alleviate the very economic conditions which caused the boat people to leave Vietnam in the first place?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I have already covered the point concerning aid as regards this issue. This question is really concerned with the Vietnamese objection to what can be described as forcible repatriation. The Vietnamese Government have agreed to take back these people provided forcible repatriation is not used.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, will the Minister go a little further than he did in answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon? Do not these mysterious standard procedures involve the use of force?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, hope that they will not involve the use of force at all. That is the whole point of this argument.