Nuclear Missiles (Hansard, 27 April 1989)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Glenarthur)
My Lords, the stated objective of the Warsaw Pact is the elimination of nuclear weapons from Europe. NATO's long-standing strategy of flexible response requires maintenance of an effective mix of up-to-date conventional and nuclear forces, including land-based missiles. This conflict of objectives does not provide a fruitful basis for negotiations.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, are the Government aware that the Prime Minister's mistrust of the rest of Western Europe is fully reciprocated? Are they further aware that, because she has no concept of Europe beyond the operation of market forces and nuclear weaponry, the louder she expresses her present views the more inaudible they become there?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I could not agree less with the noble Lord, Lord Kennet. His comments appear to indicate that he does not understand even the most basic elements in the process of trying to take forward the cuts which he appears to seek, which have already been taken forward in START and which, we hope, will shortly be taken forward in respect of the conventional force imbalance and on the chemical war front.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, would not the withdrawal of nuclear weapons from Europe leave the Soviet Union and its allies with an overwhelming superiority, thanks to its great superiority in conventional arms and its powerful apparatus for chemical warfare?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, my noble friend is quite right. If the suggested negotiations towards equal ceilings of short-range weapons took place, matters could become much more serious. Negotiations would drag on and Soviet pressure for a third zero would increase. We cannot be sure that all alliance governments would have the resolve to resist in the face of a sustained public relations campaign, which is what this amounts to.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is it not the case that the West German Chancellor, Dr. Kohl, is not in favour of a new generation of short-range nuclear weapons on the soil of West Germany? Is the noble Lord not aware that, in this, Dr. Kohl reflects the view of the great majority of the West German people and that the majority of the members of NATO are sympathetic to that point of view? In 1370 those circumstances, therefore, is it not essential that the Prime Minister, when she meets Dr. Kohl over the weekend, shows an appreciation and understanding of the feelings of a democratic ally, acts accordingly and does not try to bully him?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord is not quite right in his suggestions. Of course the Federal Republic of Germany position is important, but the Germans themselves acknowledge that decisions on NATO strategy will be taken by the alliance as a whole.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, will my noble friend remind the House that it is a fact that the Soviets have, in the last two or three years, brought in their new generation of short-range nuclear weapons and, therefore, that we are not, in accuracy, flexibility or numbers, in any way comparable with what they now have deployed against us?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, yes; my noble friend is quite right. The Soviet Union has introduced over 200 SS.21s into Eastern Europe since 1981 to replace the missiles. Furthermore, Soviet FROG nuclear-capable artillery has improved continuously throughout the 1980s as towed systems have been replaced by more modern self-propelled systems.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, is that not an extremely good reason for negotiating a reduction in short-range nuclear weapons? Everyone knows that the Soviet Union has a large superiority in nuclear weapons at the moment. I cannot understand —perhaps the noble Lord will explain this point—why the Government are not prepared to enter into negotiations to adjust that balance in combination with an adjustment of conventional forces. The lack of imagination shown by Her Majesty's Government in regard to this opportunity, which has occurred in the last three years, to push forward disarmament negotiations is a source of astonishment not only to us but to our allies.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I think that the lack of imagination is for those who do not imagine quite what the Soviet Union might seek to achieve from that sort of arrangement. The fact is that one can have arms control negotiations that make sense only when the prospective parties share a common goal. That might apply. It applies in the ca se of START and in conventional and chemical warfare, but certainly not to short-range missiles. Furthermore, no one has suggested a plausible method of verifying equal ceilings on SNF missile systems. The Warsaw Pact would soon argue that only a third zero could be verified. I must ask the noble Lord whether he thinks that NATO could walk away from the negotiating table then.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, in the circumstances of the case, they are not only in danger of losing the sympathy of the German public but are in some danger of losing the sympathy of the British public as well? Would it not reinforce the Prime Minister's difficult task in changing her own mind if she were to take 1371 into consideration the fact that all that is being asked is that the Government shall be willing to negotiate? By refusing to take up that position and rejecting the idea of negotiating on the matter they are placing themselves in a position where they are in danger of being seen as the aggressor rather than the defender.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, I should have thought that nothing would be more calculated to remove confidence in what we are trying to do than breaking down what has essentially kept the peace in Europe for the last 40 years.

§ Lord Thorneycroft
My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that, with the mercifully improved climate of peace in Central Europe, the danger of the Western powers losing their will-power, their nerve and their sense of unity has always been an apparent and possible danger that we must face? Will he therefore wish the Prime Minister well in her efforts with President Bush to try to hold this great alliance together so that the great benefits that have come from that, including the present climate of peace, may be continued in the future?

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, my noble friend has put his finger on the most important aspect of the whole issue. As the House will know, there has already been a 35 per cent. reduction in NATO's stockpile of nuclear weapons in Europe since 1979, whereas the recent Soviet indication is that they would cut only 24 out of 1,608 short-range missile systems.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the essential matter is to preserve the unity of NATO and that that can only be achieved if the Prime Minister is ready to see the point of view of other members of NATO? Does he further agree that at the present time that is not the case? If other members of NATO—and I shall not give a list of names because I am sure that noble Lords know them perfectly well—seek to put another point of view, is it not important that the right honourable lady should be prepared to consider it and discuss it rationally? She should not go there and refuse to see any point of view other than her own.

§ Lord Glenarthur
My Lords, it would be a mistake for the noble Lord to think for one minute that that view is held by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister alone. As has already been said, what is important is that NATO is an alliance which has been effective for the past 40 years and the decision that will ultimately be taken must be one for the alliance as a whole.

§ Lord Fraser of Kilmorack
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that what must be avoided at all costs is a situation in which by some mischance we have made Europe safe for another conventional war? There are many noble Lords in this House who are old enough to remember that conventional weapons can be quite unpleasant too.

§ Lord Glenarthur
Yes, my Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend that that is the case. One of 1372 the very real risks arising from the kind of suggestions that have been made from other quarters is that we may go down the precise road that the other noble Lord does not want to take.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, has the Minister seen in today's Independent the very factual letter from Dr. Frank Blackaby about NATO and the Warsaw Pact and exactly who has modernised their forces and when? If he has read the letter is he in a position to correct any errors that may appear in it?

§ Lord Glenarthur
No, my Lords, I have not seen it.