HL Deb 10 April 1989 vol 506 cc1-4

Lord Bethell asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will advise Her Majesty the Queen to withdraw the award of Knight Grand Cross of the Order of the Bath conferred on President Ceausescu of Romania on 12th June 1978 because of abuse of human rights in Romania.

The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, we are profoundly disturbed by the repressive policies being pursued by President Ceausescu of Romania. We condemn the systematic violations of human rights taking place in that country.

It would, however, be inappropriate for Her Majesty to be involved in a political gesture of the kind proposed; nor do we have any plans to advise otherwise. We are concentrating our efforts on drawing attention to the widespread abuses of human rights in Romania and, with other EC member states, seeking a significant improvement in Romanian performance.

Lord Bethell

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. However, with the benefit of hindsight, does he agree that it was a serious error for the then Government to have invited to this country someone whose Government represented a regime with almost the worst human rights record in Europe at that time? Does he agree that we should consider very carefully before allowing governments to invite someone like President Ceausescu to this country on a state visit as opposed to a government to government visit?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, President Ceausescu is a head of state and not a head of government, although he also holds the latter post. We are anxious to improve our relations with Romania but that would have to be in the context of an improvement in Romania's human rights performance. We wish to take every opportunity for them to hear our views.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs

My Lords, does the Minister agree that, as international agreements have clearly failed to improve the Romanian President's record on human rights, international disapproval is perhaps the only course? Therefore, does he accept that there should be some way in which European disapproval can be shown, even though, as he said, it is not possible to withdraw honours? Can he give a commitment to continue to raise the issue at forthcoming CSCE conferences?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that we shall lose no opportunity for making our views known to the Romanian leadership. The CSCE process is just one of those occasions. We have reminded the Romanians of their obligations under the Final Act on more than one occasion. The United Nations human rights conference has also recently appointed a rapporteur to look into the question of human rights abuses in that country.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, at the same time as raising the question of human rights, will the Government also take up with the Romanians the question of the bulldozing of historic churches in Bucharest and the enforced collectivisation of villages in the Romanian countryside which also involves the destruction of much of Romania's cultural heritage?

Lord Trefgarne

Yes, my Lords. That is a matter which is causing us special concern. A number of churches around Bucharest were demolished between 1984 and 1987 but I understand that none has been demolished since 1987. We wonder whether that may be the result of international pressure. We certainly hope so.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, can my noble friend also take into account the unpleasant behaviour of the Romanians towards the Hungarians within their territory, who I understand are attacked obsessively by the Romanian Government?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, my noble friend is quite correct. There are about 2 million people of Hungarian descent living in part of Romania. We are anxious about their condition and have also made that point known to our Romanian interlocutors.

The Earl of Lauderdale

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether or not Transylvania, where the Romanian minority lives, is open to visits by journalists and others?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I understand that one or two Western Europeans have been allowed to visit parts of Transylvania, including, I understand, my noble friend Lord Newall. However, generally speaking our diplomats in Romania are subject to very considerable restrictions.

Lord Bethell

My Lords, can my noble friend advise the House whether the Romanian Government have yet apologised for the beating up of the British ambassador in Bucharest?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, no, they have not, is the short answer. Our ambassador tried to visit a Romanian citizen recently and, as my noble friend has pointed out, he was manhandled and subjected to some abuse. My right honourable and learned friend the Foreign Secretary has raised that matter quite recently with the Romanian Foreign Secretary but I am sorry to say has not received a satisfactory reply.

Lord Ironside

My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister say whether a collar was awarded at the same time as the Grand Cross? Does he agree that a collar is in any case the property of Her Majesty's Government? Will he say whether any reciprocal award was made during the state visit to this country?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am afraid that I shall have to inquire into both those points. I do not think that a reciprocal award was made, but I shall check. As regards the ownership of the collar to which my noble friend refers, perhaps I may write to him.