§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Lord Aylestone asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether, as they have never accepted being legally bound by agreements made in 1979 between West Sussex County Council and the British Airports Authority, they are prepared to consider the recommendation that, in spite of the many difficulties and obstacles and the inevitable controversy, all efforts should be made to provide a second main runway at Gatwick.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)My Lords, my right honourable friend is awaiting wide-ranging advice from the Civil Aviation Authority on airport and airspace capacity to 2005. We shall have to consider carefully this and all the recommendations made by the Select Committee on Transport in another place.
§ Lord AylestoneMy Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. Will Her Majesty's Government take into consideration the findings of the Select Committee on Transport that found, as regards the main runway at Gatwick, there is one take-off or landing every five minutes? That may not be serious at all times but certainly it is at some times of the day, especially in peak hours. Secondly, the recommendation from that Select Committee was that no effort should be spared to proceed at once to introduce and provide an additional second runway, perhaps 8 in parallel with the first one. Will the Minister comment on that?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, as I said in my original Answer, we shall of course take into account the Select Committee's recommendations. We shall respond to them in the normal way. We have commissioned the CAA to give us advice by July of this year. We shall have to wait to see what it advises.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, has the Civil Aviation Authority already advised Her Majesty's Government that an additional runway will be required in the South-East of England before the end of the century and that therefore time is now running short for the preparatory work?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, the advice that the CAA has given us was in the consultation document that it produced—CAP 548. It is plainly wrong to reach decisions until we have considered the CAA's formal advice in July, which is not that far away now, when everyone will have had their chance to say something.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, is it not a fact that, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, has said, up to now the CAA has expressed great concern about the possible shortage of airspace capacity? That is a problem which still has to be solved. Is it not also a fact that the Select Committee on Transport in the other place appears not to have taken into consideration whether there will be any change in the estimates of passengers arising as a result of the Channel Tunnel?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, like airport capacity, airspace is equally a concern. Obviously one cannot reach a decision on one without knowing what the effects on the other will be. That will be a very important part of the Civil Aviation Authority's advice when it gives it to us in July. I think it would be wrong for me to comment in your Lordships' House on the Select Committee's report in another place as of course it will be receiving the normal formal response to that report in the usual way.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, is the Minister aware that although we welcome the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Aylestone, we deeply regret that his colleague the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, cannot be present owing to an accident? We all wish her well. Having said that, will the Government continue to resist pressure coming from various sources for any extension of night flying into either Gatwick or Heathrow beyond the emergency arrangements that are normally made?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I should like to join the noble Lord in expressing regret that the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, has had an accident. I am sure I speak for everybody on our side of the House when I wish her a speedy recovery. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Aylestone, on having taken up the cudgels that she has left off. So far as concerns night flying at Gatwick and 9 Heathrow, in February we laid down a regime for the next five years. We have no plans to alter that regime.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, will my noble friend point out to the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, that there is a— —
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, perhaps I may start again. Will my noble friend point out to the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, that there is a very close relationship between airspace and runway capacity and that shortage of runway capacity accentuates shortage of airspace?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I agree with my noble friend. There is a close correlation between airspace capacity and airport capacity. However, I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, suggested anything otherwise.
§ Lord Howie of Troon: My Lords——
§ Baroness Hylton-FosterMy Lords, will the Minister consider—I hope that I have the terminology correct—the airspace when considering the question of a second runway at Gatwick? I understand that there is already a great deal of air traffic. Will the Minister agree that more would only make more problems for the poor air traffic controllers?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I believe that I have covered that already in the Answer that I have given. Obviously airspace and airport capacity need to be considered at the same time.
§ Lord Howie of TroonMy Lords, I do not mind giving way to anybody. While these matters are under consideration, will the Minister attempt to use his good offices to dissuade the BAA from proceeding with its proposals to build a fifth terminal at Heathrow and instead to concentrate on the possible runway deficiencies at Gatwick or Stansted?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, if the BAA proposes to build a fifth terminal at Heathrow it would have to be subject to planning permission. However, I should perhaps have said earlier that there are three factors in the equation: airport capacity; airspace capacity; and terminal capacity.
§ Lord AylestoneMy Lords, I thank the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, for their kind comments about my noble friend who is unable to be here today. Noble Lords may already have realised that I have neither the knowledge of the noble Baroness nor her tenacity.