ILEA Playing Fields: Transfer (Hansard, 7 April 1989)

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, the inner London boroughs have proposed to my right honourable friend that the transfer to individual boroughs of major ILEA sports facilities should be subject to certain conditions. They have requested transfer to specific boroughs subject to the condition that, if a borough no longer wishes to maintain the site, it must be offered, free of charge, to any other inner London borough which is prepared to maintain it as a sports centre. Each proposal for transfer will have to be considered on its merits, but my right honourable friend will be prepared, wherever appropriate, to impose such conditions.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Will he confirm, however, that these grounds will have a covenant attached to them to retain them in use as playing fields because it is a fact, is it not, that transfers must take place at the most profitable rates, apart from when a free offer is involved? If none of those free offers which the Minister mentioned were taken up, I understand the most profitable rate should be sought. Will covenants be attached to the grounds to ensure continuing sports use, or will the Minister rely on the new London strategic planning guidelines, which would mean that at least an authority would have to advertise a change of use, if that was what was proposed?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question. I am not sure that a covenant will be attached to the grounds; I think it is more a case of a condition. My right honourable friend must be satisfied that an inner London borough requires property for its LEA functions before he can make a transfer order. He would expect to make those conditions on the order only for major items of property serving more than one borough, such as ILEA's large sports centres.

§ Lord Gainford
My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister say whether he has any information as to how many playing fields have already been disposed of and how many are in the process of being disposed of?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there is only one playing field in Kingston, which is about to be disposed of, and there are about six in the pipeline.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, the playing field referred to is in the constituency of Mrs. Angela Rumbold, the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science. Does the Minister appreciate the intolerable pressures on ILEA at this time in respect of its playing fields? Does the Minister also acknowledge, and would he care to comment on, the fact that the Government have given ILEA only £11 million for the current year to maintain 1,000 schools, and yet the Government have promised £4 million to Haberdashers' Aske's school and £10 million to the new CTC in Southwark? How does the Minister reconcile treating ILEA, with its enormous problems, in such a way by giving it only £11 million to maintain 1,000 schools for the children of Inner London, whereas it is proposed to give £14 million to two schools for their exclusive use?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I am very sorry to hear what the noble Lord had to say. I shall certainly pass on his comments in the greatest sincerity to my right honourable friend.

§ Lord Bramall
My Lords, despite the Government's assurances, does not the Minister agree that the retention of playing fields for young people in London remains a very serious problem, and indeed a vital one if the amount of sport—already on the wane—in the state education system is not to go down still further? Does not the Minister agree that, with the great financial temptations to which the noble Baroness referred of property development of open spaces, there is a real risk that, even if these playing fields are handed over to inner or outer London boroughs, they will not continue to be used for the purpose for which they were originally intended? Will the Minister therefore give an assurance that before any irreversible steps are taken on the transfer of ILEA's grounds, the two voluntary bodies dealing with London's playing fields and the Sports Council, all of which have a spiritual mandate to watch over and safeguard such facilities—I hope I may use the word "spiritual" here—are consulted so there is the maximum chance of retaining such grounds for recreational purposes and of maintaining them thereafter?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is because there could be a potential temptation to local authorities that my right honourable friend has sought to place these conditions on the transfers. I am sure, however, that boroughs will wish to continue to use the playing fields currently used by ILEA, and that they will be influenced by pupil pressure and, no doubt, parent pressure. I would not expect any sports fields to go out of sports use as a result of ILEA's abolition.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, will the Minister take this opportunity to say something helpful both to ILEA and to the boroughs? I believe that they share his view that sports fields should continue in use as sports fields. However, where there are intolerable economic pressures they may 1303 very well be driven to have to consider some of the wrong actions to which the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Bramall, has just drawn our attention.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, we regard that possibility as being extremely unlikely, mainly because parents will certainly not vote for a local authority that has the intention of selling playing fields.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, will my noble friend the Minister confirm that he appreciates that there is a very mixed position here between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of the Environment, and that there will be a need in planning terms for continuing liaison on this matter between those departments?

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I believe that my noble friend is correct. I shall draw her remarks to the attention of both Secretaries of State concerned.