National Dock Labour Scheme (Hansard, 25 October 1988)

§ The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Lord Young of Graffham)
My Lords, I can only reiterate what I said on 25th February. The Government are very conscious of the views of many Members of your Lordships' House about the drawbacks of the dock labour scheme. However it still remains the position that there are at present no plans to change its operation.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, are the Government also aware of the effects of the dock labour scheme on the ports to which it applies? In particular are they aware of the fact that over the past 10 years, whereas the number employed in non-scheme docks has more than doubled, in docks covered by the scheme the number has fallen by more than half? Is that fact not some reason for the Government to make up their mind?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, on that basis it seems that the Government's mind has already been made up by external events. If matters carry on in that way, that might be the situation. I repeat to my noble friend that the Government have not made up their mind on this subject and at present there are no plans to introduce any matters to do with the dock labour scheme.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the regeneration of the docklands the unions could have been very difficult? They could have implemented the National Dock Labour Scheme and made life a little more difficult. The unions did not, the docklands have been regenerated and credit should be given where it is due.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
Yes, my Lords, but I am also aware that the great regeneration of the docklands had little to do with the docks. In fact it 1470 was the end of the docks that provided all the land for redevelopment.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, will the noble Lord take into consideration the terrible effect that the dock labour scheme is having upon the inland waterways in that all the dock labour ports are in fact the entrances to those waterways? The damage is that the scheme is reducing the entire cargo-carrying capacity and business of those waterways.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am very well aware that the noble Viscount rarely misses an opportunity to bring to the attention of your Lordships' House the claims of the inland waterways, and on this occasion he is right to do so.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, can my noble friend tell us how much it is currently costing the taxpayer to keep this scheme in existence? Can he also say how the present figure compares with figures in the past? Is it correct to say that there is a form of indexation which offsets the fall in the value of money? Can my noble friend tell us what is the cost to the taxpayer per year at present?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I cannot help my noble friend, but I shall write to him and place a copy of my letter in the Library so that your Lordships' House can learn from it.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that before any steps are taken in relation to the National Dock Labour Board it would be advisable to consult with both sides of the industry as to its future? Is it not also true to say that it would be lamentable if we were to return to the labour conditions that prevailed before the National Dock Labour Board came into existence because that would be very counterproductive indeed?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I wish to assure the noble Baroness that the Government have no plans at present to change its operation. At the same time we are aware of the operation of non-scheme ports. In those, the practices which once existed have not returned.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, in the light of his answer to the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, is my noble friend aware that there would not have been a need for a docklands scheme if the London docks had been preserved from the ravages of the dock labour scheme?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, many things have happened as a result of the practices of London docks. Indeed there are those who argue that the very existence of containers is due to some of the practices that at one time existed within the London docks. However, we can only take the world as we find it today. Today docklands is the fastest growing example of inner city regeneration anywhere in the world and all who live and work there can only rejoice in that.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, in order to get the history books straight, is the Minister aware that one of the reasons for the decline of docklands as we knew them was the inefficiency of the German bomber? It did not bomb the docks very well, whereas Bomber Harris and that crowd wiped the German docks right out. The result was that with Marshall Aid the Germans were able to build brand new docks while we are left with the rubbish of yesteryear. It has nothing to do with the National Dock Labour Scheme.

Lord Young of Grafham
My Lords, I am grateful for the ingenious arguments advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Mellish. However, with 1992 in mind, I do not think that I shall make comparisons between ourselves and our German partners in the new Europe.