§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Baroness David asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether they have an explanation of the large drop-out rate from the teaching force, and whether they have any policies for dealing with it.
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, there is no large drop-out rate from the teaching force. The latest complete figures, which relate to 1986, show the wastage rate, including retirements and premature retirements, stable at around 8 per cent., a figure which has held steady for a number of years. Complete data for 1987 are not yet available. In its report of March 1988 the Interim Advisory Committee on Teachers' Pay noted that less than 1 per cent. of teachers left the force for other paid employment.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply but it is nothing to be complacent about. Does he agree with the Interim Advisory Report on Teachers' Pay, from which he has just quoted, which claims that recruitment to the teaching force is becoming more difficult and acute in particular areas, and that five out of 10 teachers who qualify do not take up teaching in the following academic year?
Is the Minister aware that there will be an estimated shortage of 4,000 to 12,000 maths teachers, 2,300 physics teachers and 3,000 linguists by 1995, which is just when the national curriculum is expected to get into full swing? What are the Government going to do about it?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, we shall have to agree to differ on our figures. There has been no drastic fall off in applications in initial teacher training this year. Overall applications are up on last 878 year. Primary training applications are up nearly 8 per cent., secondary applications are down only 5 per cent., applications for technology, maths and physics are down a little on last year and for chemistry they are down by a quarter. However the actual recruitment figures remain to be seen. The underlying trend, even in the shortage subjects, is still upwards after several years of decline since 1985.
§ Lord ParryMy Lords, can the House assume that the Minister is familiar with the Welsh education statistics bulletin No. 5—the primary school staffing survey?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I am totally unaware of the survey. I have only just started this job. However, I shall look into it.
§ Lord ParryMy Lords, I am grateful for that honest answer from the Minister. I appreciate what he is saying. However, the House will expect me to explain why I asked the question. I ask a further question of the Minister. Is he aware that the survey shows that of 770 primary schools in Wales almost half have gaps in their curricula because of staff shortages or lack of expertise? Is he further aware that the survey, which has been published in advance of a long awaited survey of English schools and which is to find out the similar patterns that exist, means that 49 per cent. of schools cannot teach as full a range of subjects as they would like? Does he know that in some schools there are problems with more than one subject area? Would he expect that 9 per cent. are unable to offer Welsh? I know that it is embarrassing for noble Lords opposite, but the facts are deadly important for the country.
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, that is very interesting but I do not think it is a question for me. It is a question for the Minister of State for Wales.
§ Lord GlenamaraMy Lords, does the noble Viscount agree that it is meaningless to talk about the supply of teachers alone without considering the school population? Can he tell us what will happen to the pupil-teacher ratio over the next few years?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, the Government's plans for the pupil-teacher ratio are to make sure that it is maintained at its present record low level of 17 to one. Noble Lords might like to be reminded that in 1979 the pupil-teacher ratio was 18.5:1. The Government have a vigorous action programme in place to boost recruitment to shortage subjects, especially in maths, physics and technology.
§ Lord ParryMy Lords, respectful as I am of the Welsh Office—and my noble Leader sitting before me was once Secretary of State for Wales—will the noble Viscount accept that it is the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government and the Secretary of State for Education to reply when the education system of this country is under question?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, as I have said, I am very new to this job. I am sure that the noble Lord is probably right. If he is I apologise.
§ Lord ArdwickMy Lords, is the noble Lord yet aware of the fact that though one in five of head teacher posts throughout the country were not filled when first advertised, in the ILEA a good half of the posts last year had to be re-advertised? Can he explain the disparity between the two figures?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I am afraid I cannot.
§ Lord Dormand of EasingtonMy Lords, in view of the increased importance which the Government now place on religious education, will the Minister say what is being done to meet the shortage of specialist teachers in this subject? Will the Government resist the temptation to employ the local parson who may well be a most worthy person but who is unlikely to be a trained teacher and is possibly quite unsuited to this very important task?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I had better write to the noble Lord on that point.
§ Lord PestonMy Lords, is the Minister aware that in the independent schools teachers' pay is rising at approximately twice the rate that it is in maintained schools? Would it not be a good idea if in this case the Government followed the lead of the private sector and paid a proper rate of pay which would both raise the morale of teachers and help to keep them in our schools?
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, the financial constraint of £385 million in this year's remit is £85 million more than last year and on top of an expected increase of about £100 million in the pay bill next year as teachers continue to benefit through incremental progression and the award of allowances from the changes already introduced.
§ Baroness DavidMy Lords, I was very remiss when I asked my first supplementary question in not welcoming the noble Viscount to his new job.
§ Baroness DavidI wish him every good fortune in it. We shall have many questions for him.
In response to my first supplementary, he said that there were a great many people applying to enter teacher training. Is he aware however that on the post-graduate certificate of education courses, one in three of those entering to do physics and one in four to do maths do not complete their courses even when they may be receiving £1,300 in bursaries? Thus the situation is far from satisfactory.
§ Viscount DavidsonMy Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her kind words. I look forward to our future and, I am sure, friendly encounters over the Dispatch Box.
880 On the question of dropping out, there are those who drop out from courses of initial teacher training and those who complete their training but do not go on to teach. In recent years some 20 per cent. of all students on initial teacher training courses dropped out during their course. Some 20 per cent. of those who complete their teacher training fail to enter teaching in maintained schools within four years of qualification; but this is not a new situation.