"Cabinet" Film: Allegations (Hansard, 11 October 1988)

§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, there was no such Ministerial or official campaign against the peace campaigners as alleged. The noble Lord's Question therefore does not arise.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is the Minister saying that there was no government attempt to discredit members of CND in 1982 and 1983? Is he further saying that no Ministers were involved in such a campaign? Finally, is he further saying that no civil servants, including the Prime Minister's press secretary, Bernard Ingham, were involved in that campaign?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's question is exactly that which I read out a moment ago. I should perhaps add that the role of civil servants in respect of public debate on nuclear issues as on any other issues is to advise Ministers on the presentation of government policy, and that is most certainly a proper role for them.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, arising from this Question, would the Minister be good enough to make a comment on the fatuous remark made by Mr. Arthur Scargill last week that when President Reagan met Mr. Gorbachev and they concluded their welcome peace agreement, they had in mind the Greenham women?

§ Lord Trefgarne
I have not heard that particular remark, my Lords.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, he said it on television.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I have not heard that remark from Mr. Scargill but there are quite a number of his remarks that might call for adverse comment.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is it not a bad practice to table Questions based on no better authority than a film?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend is right, particularly as in this case the film has not been shown, as I understand it, except on one occasion. Certainly I have not seen it and I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, has done so.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the motive behind this Question lies in the fact that the BBC has been pressurised not to show the film on its programmes and has succumbed to that pressure? If the situation is as described by the noble Lord, why does the BBC not transmit the programme?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there is no question of any pressure having been put on the BBC to show or not to show this film. The question of whether or not it is to be shown is therefore a matter for the BBC.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, on behalf of the House, may I ask how we are to construe the word "Cabinet", which is the title of the film. Does it mean the parlour in which Queen Anne received a select number of her privy counsellors or does it refer to what we would call in French the "cabinet de toilette"? In the latter case would not details of the involvement of Ministers and permanent secretaries be a gross violation of privacy?'

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, as I said just now, unfortunately I have not seen the film and therefore cannot say whether it has any relevance to page 3 of a famous newspaper.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, is it not the case that the practice of this House is that noble Lords who put down a Question ipso facto take responsibility for the quotations that they cite?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I believe that my noble friend may be quite correct. I am not of course responsible for the Questions on the Order Paper; only for the Answers.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the Minister says that he has not seen the film, but in view of the public interest that has been aroused by its content, may I ask him either to look at the film or to obtain a script of it, as it makes specific allegations—allegations for which I am not in any way responsible? This is a matter of public concern and I should have thought that the Government would want either to 721 substantiate their opposition, as expressed by the Minister this afternoon, or if necessary to prosecute if there were factual errors when part of the film was shown in public. The Minister answered my question about civil servants saying that it is their responsibility to advise Ministers. Does he not agree that it is quite improper for a civil servant to enter the political field by attending meetings of Cabinet committees or political parties, as is alleged in that film? Will he address himself to the public concern that was raised when the film was eventually shown?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the role of civil servants is the one that I described a moment ago, which is to advise Ministers on presentational and other aspects of their policy. I do not think I need to go further than that in describing what civil servants should do. As for the earlier part of the noble Lord's supplementary question, I do not think that I can be asked to form a view on a film that I have not seen.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, as one who has neither seen the film nor observed the slightest public interest in it, may I ask whether it would not be better if we ceased to advertise it?