HL Deb 03 November 1988 vol 501 cc392-4

Baroness Burton of Coventry asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will make a statement on air matters discussed at the meeting of the European Community Transport Ministers' Council held on 26th October, with particular reference to the proposal on air traffic control tabled by the Commission.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, no air matters were discussed. The Commission did not in the event table proposals; it simply said it would send the Council a report on aviation matters, that has not yet been received. We understand that the report may include a draft directive on personnel licensing and a memorandum on air traffic system capacity problems.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, is the Minister aware that that is a most disappointing and unsatisfactory Answer? I hope that he thinks so too. As the air traffic control system in Europe and the United Kingdom has come close to breaking point and as there is growing recognition of the inadequacy of capacity both in the air and on land, does the Minister not think that air transport should have been discussed on 26th October? Does he agree that this is a European problem and that a Europe-wide air traffic control system is now a matter of the most urgent necessity?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am sorry that my Answer disappointed the noble Baroness. However, what the Commission does is something over which I have no control. The noble Baroness will be aware that a good deal is going on concerning air traffic control in Europe. At the most recent meeting of the ECAC a United Kingdom proposal for a central air traffic flow management system was accepted and I hope that work will go ahead on that. It will be discussed at the EUROCONTROL meeting on 22nd November. There is a good deal of European co-ordination in that area.

I believe that action needs to go beyond the 12 member states of the EC. ECAC has 22 member states and involves countries outside the EC.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, can my noble friend say whether or not his European colleagues, either at the October meeting or any other, have indicated that they are seriously tackling the frequency of industrial disputes among their air traffic controllers which inflicted so much misery on our fellow citizens last summer?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, industrial disputes in other countries are not something in which we can become involved. I know that the matter was on the agenda of the ECAC meeting and I hope that those countries which have had problems, particularly Spain and Greece, will do their very best to sort the situation out before next year as it is in their own interests to do so.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, does the Minister appreciate that we have congratulated him on the initiative which he has shown in the development of EUROCONTROL and that we are pleased that his proposals have been accepted? But does he also appreciate the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, that the problem created by the shortage of air capacity is exacerbated by industrial disputes, not necessarily in this country; and that we were very disappointed with the reply that he gave to my noble friend Lord Carmichael on 18th October that that was a matter entirely for the countries concerned? Does he recall that my noble friend asked that there should be discussions with the trade unions in the EC to discuss the matter because we do not know whether the problem concerns wages, man-hours or equipment? Is that not therefore a matter which ought to be discussed by the Council of Transport Ministers?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I am afraid that I do not agree. I am grateful for the noble Lord's first remarks, but industrial relations problems can only be sorted out by the employers of the air traffic controllers in the countries concerned, which is the state.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, in view of the reply which the Minister gave me on 19th October and in view of his disappointing reply today, can he tell me whether the Transport Ministers are hoping that for their next meeting on 8th and 9th December the Commission will have tabled—as it indicated in advance that it would—its proposals on air traffic control and its amendment to the 1983 Directive on the Inter-regional Air Services Agreement?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I certainly hope that the proposals concerning the Inter-regional Air Services Agreement will be tabled in time for discussion at the December meeting. We should certainly like to see some progress made on that matter. So far as concerns air traffic control measures, obviously if the Commission has proposals to make we should be interested to see them. However, I emphasise that we do not want to divert scarce resources and have too many people becoming involved in this matter. We already have Eurocontrol and ECAC.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, surely the Minister is not telling the House that it is a sideline to consider the matter of air traffic control, in view of what happened this summer. Is he not aware that on the 19th he told me that this matter would be discussed on the 26th? I realise that the Minister is not responsible for the fact that the Commission has not tabled that report, but surely he is not now suggesting that their proposals for air traffic control should not be available by 8th December, is he?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, on the 19th I said that it was the intention of the Commission to table proposals. The fact that it did not get around to doing so cannot be put down to me. As I said, we have a number of organisations involved in air traffic control in Europe, principally Eurocontrol and ECAC. We shall obviously be interested to see what the Commission has to propose, but I think that primarily those two organisations should be in the lead on the matter.