Unleaded Petrol (Hansard, 2 November 1988)

§ The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Lord Young of Graffham)
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are pleased to note the response of the oil companies and the rapid increase in the number of sites selling unleaded petrol since the last Budget.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am grateful for his reply but I am not very satisfied with it? Is he further aware that only 189 about 2,000 petrol stations throughout the country out of a total of 30,000 sell unleaded petrol? Does he recognise the frustration of people who can use unleaded petrol and who want to use it but find when they go to a garage that it is not sold or, if it is, that there are no supplies?
Finally, is the Minister aware that all too often people can go to a cut-price garage and buy four-star petrol at below the price of unleaded petrol, a position which I hope he will agree is wholly unsatisfactory? Will he ask his right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or better still the Prime Minister, to give the oil companies the rough end of his, or her, tongue?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord but I fear that on this occasion I cannot agree. The number of sites in the country which sell unleaded petrol has now risen to 2,300 and that number is likely to rise to more than 3,000 by the end of the year. At the time of the last Budget there were fewer than 1,000 sites selling lead-free petrol, so the figure has gone up by a factor of three since then.
Unleaded petrol is now being sold at some 5p to 6p per gallon below the price of four-star petrol. However, I accept that many people have a very real desire to use unleaded petrol. To help the market to work we shall be amending the petrol price marking order, which will facilitate the display of the price of lead-free petrol on roadside notices.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the increasing number of pumps that sell unleaded petrol would be used more if more members of the public had some idea of whether or not their present car could use unleaded petrol or whether it could be converted? Does he further agree that it might be a good idea to have some kind of advertising campaign so that the public can better understand the position?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this point. Many modern cars can be converted and I am told that the conversion can he done quite quickly. Indeed I am arranging to have my own ministerial car adjusted so that it can run on lead-free petrol. I ask people themselves to make inquiries. I am told that a car converted to run on lead-free petrol can in extremis use ordinary leaded petrol, so there is no great disability there.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House what percentage of government cars now use unleaded petrol since the Budget reduced the price?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
It depends, my Lords. Some cars which are used by government Ministers are not capable of being converted.

A noble Lord
Like their Ministers!

§ Lord Young of Graffham
Whereas, of course, my Lords, our Ministers need no conversion at all. If the noble Lord cares to put down a Question I shall be 190 only too happy to answer. Modern cars can be converted easily. I am sure we shall find that more and more government cars are being converted.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I do not need to put down a separate Question. If the Minister does not know the answer, can he not write to me?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I certainly can and I shall.

§ Baroness Strange
My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware that in France there are tax concessions on new cars which take only unleaded petrol? Perhaps Her Majesty's Government would consider something of that nature in this country.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I should have thought that a concession of 5p to 6p per gallon which will reduce running costs would be more effective than a price concession on the cost of a new car. What is important is that petrol companies take advantage and ensure, as I understand they are doing, that more and more sites sell lead-free petrol.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the course of his Budget Statement earlier this year the Chancellor of the Exchequer envisaged a price differential of 11p as distinct from the figure of 5p which the Minister has just mentioned? Can he give the House some information as to returns from Customs and Excise which would indicate the take-up of unleaded petrol for the last six months? That would be most helpful to the House. Also, will he give the House, as undoubtedly he will be able to do, an assurance that the Prime Minister's vehicle has been adapted to use unleaded petrol?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I should be grateful for the assurance, which the noble Lord will no doubt gladly give the House, that his own vehicle will be so converted. I think that it is important first of all to ensure that there is an adequate supply of unleaded petrol around the country: as a consequence more and more people will convert their cars. Apart from the national interest, it is in a person's economic self-interest that he converts his car when there is a saving of 5p to 6p per gallon. Indeed, one would hope that the market would widen the gap even further. I am told that in many cases the cost of conversion is only some £30 and it will quickly become self-funding.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, in the light of the Minister's reply to his noble friend Lady Carnegy that all converted cars can use leaded or unleaded petrol, is he aware that two surveys conducted by the magazine Which? showed that franchise dealers and manufacturers gave conflicting answers to the public? As most motorists would like to convert their cars but want to be satisfied that they can run on either leaded or unleaded petrol, particularly in view of the shortage of supplies of unleaded petrol at petrol stations, is it not absolutely essential that someone should ensure that correct information is given to them?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I shall certainly ensure that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport reads the exchanges in your Lordships' House and I am sure that he will proceed accordingly.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, as I am the owner of a diesel motor car and I understand that diesel is not so harmful to the atmosphere as other fuels, may I ask the Minister whether he would consider reducing the price of diesel?

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, I think perhaps that we had better concentrate on having more unleaded petrol sold around the country as a first step.

Viscount St. Davids
My Lords, has my noble friend noticed that there is a total tax concession on electric cars, which put their lead into batteries rather than into the air? At the present moment there is very little concession to electric boats, which represent the easiest way to develop electric cars. I declare an interest, in that I am investing in a company which builds motors for electric boats, but that is merely a matter of putting my money where my voice is.

§ Lord Young of Graffham
My Lords, the noble Viscount never fails to disappoint me. In any Question of any sort British Waterways will always come in.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will forgive my interruption but we have now spent 30 minutes on three Questions. The House agreed that we should spend 20 minutes on four Questions. Perhaps we may go on to the next Question now.