North Sea Pollution (Hansard, 2 November 1988)

The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (The Earl of Caithness)
My Lords, it has been our long-standing policy to take action to protect the marine environment. We agreed at the last North Sea Conference, chaired by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in London last year, on an extensive package of measures further to protect and enhance the quality of the North Sea.

§ Lord Gridley
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. However, is it not a fact that while we are regrettably responsible for some of the pollution in the North Sea, by far the greatest contribution has been made by some of our friends from their rivers? The pollution which has emanated from them has gone down to that sea. What are the Government going to do about that?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. The latest quality survey report, which was produced by independent scientists, found that 20 per cent. of the pollution in the North Sea came down through British rivers, whereas 80 per cent. came down through European rivers. We are looking forward to seeing what the Europeans are doing about it.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, is the Minister not aware that, of the 354 designated beaches in Britain which should conform to the standards laid down by the EC directive, only 251 do so? That means that there is a shortfall of 30 per cent. To what extent do these beaches constitute a health hazard? What timescale do the Government have in mind before the beaches are brought up to Common Market standards?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, like all other countries in Europe we are discussing with the Commission the full implementation of the bathing 182 waters directive. We are spending some £70 million in bringing our beaches up to standard, but this is a problem which all countries in Europe face.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, having recently hosted the ministerial meeting on the North Sea, are the Government now giving the highest priority to preparations for the next meeting at The Hague in March 1990? The decisions recently taken are very welcome. Are the Government aware that they will have the full support in such preparations of the Advisory Committee on Pollution of the Sea of which I have the privilege to be chairman?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we are all very grateful for the work that my noble friend does on this important committee. In order to keep the momentum going following the conference in London last year we hosted the first meeting of the task force in March this year. As a result we were able to make fairly good progress at The Hague in the last couple of weeks.

§ Baroness Robson of Kiddington
My Lords, does the noble Earl agree that all of us have perhaps been too complacent about what the North Sea can cope with? As a result we have arrived at a crisis. It is all very well to say that there are other countries responsible; we are also responsible. Will the noble Earl please tell me what we are doing about 7 per cent. of the pollution that goes into the North Sea, mostly in the form of sewage from Great Britain? Are the Government attempting to assess the danger to the North Sea through atmospheric pollution and discharges? These are estimated to be at about 7,000 tonnes of lead from exhausts. All there things endanger the sea. What are the Government doing about it?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, for a start I disagree with the noble Baroness's basis for her question. The North Sea is not a sick sea. The independent quality survey report showed that the North Sea was relatively good. There were a couple of areas of bad pollution, the Waddenzee and the German bight, mainly as a result of pollution from European rivers on the east coast of the North Sea. I also disagree with the noble Baroness that we are in any way complacent. We are tackling our duties in a number of different ways.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the condition of fish caught for human consumption in the North Sea is being monitored for damage by pollution?

The Earl of Caithness
Yes, my Lords, of course the fish are being monitored. But because some fish appear perhaps to have two fins instead of one, or no fin, that is not automatically due to pollution.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I hope that the Minister is not suggesting that the Government are pushing responsibility for the pollution of the North Sea on to other countries while they are content with hosting conferences and having discussions. Will he tell us what the British Government are doing about 183 the burning of toxic waste in the North Sea, and in the conference of which he spoke what specific decisions have been reached on the burning of toxic waste to which the British Government have agreed?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am surprised that the noble Lord does not know that the incineration of waste at sea by Britain is very limited. It is a major problem for Germany, as he will know. It was agreed that we should phase it out for the whole of Europe by the end of 1994.

Lord Morris
My Lords, can my noble friend say what progress the Government have made since the second North Sea conference in London last year?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, in February we published a detailed guidance note on all aspects of the declaration addressed to water authorities, industry and other organisations. I repeat that in March we hosted the first scientific task force meeting. In July we published a detailed consultation paper on the Red List. I know of no other country that has responded as we have done.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, is it not a fact that some 20 different government departments and agencies are concerned in activities that affect our whole maritime environment, including the North Sea? Will the Minister explain what machinery exists for coordination with all the different departments and agencies? If there is no such machinery, do the Government have any plans to set up an independent unit to deal with the matter?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Baroness is absolutely right. As in many areas of Government, more than one government department and more than one agency are involved. The lead department is the Department of the Environment.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, have the Government published any definition of pollution? If not, will they do so? While many forms of pollution are extremely damaging, is the Minister aware that what is pollution to human beings appears in some forms acceptable to certain denizens that live in the North Sea?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to query what is meant by pollution. It appears to some people that the discharge of sewage through long sea outfalls into the sea is pollution. When one realises that that is the environmental method approved by the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution it puts the matter in a different light.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, my noble friend made light of the number of fins there may be on a fish. But can he assure the House that there is no health hazard to people who eat fish caught in polluted waters?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I do not make light of the problem. I was merely saying that the fact that a fish may have no fins does not necessarily mean 184 that the cause is pollution. For many years fish have suffered diseases. I can assure my noble friend that the situation is being carefully monitored.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the pollution of the North Sea is not merely a matter of sewage, farmers using fertilisers and industry? It is a matter concerning everyone in the country. Those to the east of the watershed in Britain who use moss killers, weed killers, fertilisers and so on are all contributing to pollution. It is a matter for everyone in the country.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I agree with the last part of the noble Lord's question. It is a matter for everyone, not just for those to the east of the watershed. It is also a matter for everyone in Europe and doubtless the rest of the world.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, I am sorry to press the Minister on the co-ordination aspect. Although I am relieved to hear that his department is the lead department, can conflicts within that department be resolved? For example, there is a likelihood of conflict between the pollution inspectorate and the new river authorities. Strains already exist, as can be seen from the separate reports which are issued. Can the Minister reassure us on that point?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am all for a healthy exchange of views so long as the result is that we improve the environment. Yes, of course, that is what we are trying to do.