South Africa: Sanctions Policy (Hansard, 20 May 1988)

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, we implement existing restrictive measures in full. We do not consider that additional measures would contribute to the objective shared by all noble Lords; namely, the early and complete elimination by peaceful means of the deeply repugnant apartheid system.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is the Ministei aware that at the meeting in Mauritius the acting president of the EC Council of Ministers, the Foreign Minister of West Germany, indicated that because the South Africans had now cut off all channels for the supply of humanitarian aid to South Africa the EC was considering further measures or sanctions against South Africa?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the full implications of the recent South African Government actions in this respect are not absolutely clear. I should like to make it clear that the United Kingdom Government would regret and oppose any curtailment of aid programmes. We have made strong representations to the South African Government on this point, both bilaterally and jointly with our colleagues in the Twelve.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend confirm that the tougher sanctions asked for in this Question would apply not so much to the Government of South Africa as to the people of South Africa? Can he say whether we do people in difficulties any good by making them unemployed?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I agree with the implication of my noble friend's question. The Government believe that sanctions are ineffective as a means of ending apartheid and would stiffen the resistance of those who oppose change. We also believe that the punitive sanctions that have already been imposed have failed to hasten reform, have reduced external influence and indeed have strengthened those who we believe are unhelpful in this matter.
One interesting point is that notable anti-apartheid campaigners in South Africa itself, such as leaders of the Progressive Federal Party, believe like we do that the course of negotiation is to be preferred to sanctions.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, is it not the case that the policies of the South African Government have become increasingly repressive over the past few months, as exemplified by the banning of political parties and the closing of moderate newspapers? Can the noble Lord say what further action Her Majesty's Government are proposing to take to modify that? As to the view enunciated by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, is the Leader of the House aware that the overwhelming majority of the black people in South Africa would be glad to see sanctions, because they believe as we do that that would ensure the more rapid departure of apartheid?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the noble Lord's first question asks about the South African Government cutting off peaceful avenues of political change. I agree with the noble Lord that frustration and despair breed violence. We very much deplore what the South African Government have been doing in relation to the matters referred to in that part of the noble Lord's question.
On the noble Lord's second point, I have already made clear in my answer to my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter that the United Kingdom Government fundamentally disagree with what the noble Lord said in the second part of his question.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the front line states have been notable for toughening sanctions or pretending to but not carrying them out? Do they have a good or a bad record in regard to the suppression of opposition parties?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, we are moving a little wide of the Question on the Order Paper. Perhaps I may content myself, in answer to my noble friend Lord Lauderdale, with saying that the United Kingdom's record with regard to southern African states and the assistance we give to them is very good indeed.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that his right honourable and learned friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary said this week that Her Majesty's Government are maintaining contact with the ANC? Is he aware that the ANC, which represents the majority of the black people of South Africa, is very much in favour of sanctions? Are Her Majesty's Government to discuss sanctions with the ANC?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, officials meet ANC representatives from time to time as necessary. The question of further meetings with Ministers at present would be entirely hypothetical. The noble Lord did not mention this, but I should like to make the point that these contacts which we have at official level do not mean in any way that we therefore agree with the views of the ANC. I must repeat to the noble Lord that the views of the United Kingdom Government on sanctions are quite clear. I have given them today in answer to my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that the systematic and indeed illegal persecution of a young British athlete on the grounds of her race and national origin which has given her a nervous breakdown and forced her out of the country will unfortunately greatly reinforce white South African suspicions of and contempt for outside advice and interference?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, that is another question.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, what is the difference between the deprivations that millions of people suffered to defeat Nazism and African people doing the same to defeat apartheid?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I made it clear in my original Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Hatch, that it is the objective of the United Kingdom Government, and I assume of all noble Lords, that there should be the early and complete elimination of the deeply repugnant apartheid system, but by peaceful means.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that during the last war the late, unlamented Lord Haw-Haw made remarks very similar to those we have heard in this Chamber this morning? He said that if the British Government were to stand alone it would be the British people who suffered. We suffered, but we stood and ultimately we had the majority with us.
Is the Minister aware that we are the head of a remarkable multi-racial Commonwealth, the greatest mankind has seen, and that the majority of people in the great British Commonwealth believe that we, the British Government, have tried very hard to get the South African Government to abolish apartheid? We have failed using diplomatic measures and people in the British Commonwealth believe, as many people in this country believe, that we ought now seriously to consider severe sanctions.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I think that when the noble Lord comes to look at the first part of the Question which he asked he may regret it. As regards the second part, I think it goes wide of the original Question.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, I am glad to have the matter clarified. Recognising the difficulty about sanctions, may I ask the Minister—and I hope he does not say that it is another question—where Zimbabwe gets its oil. That country is fervent about sanctions against South Africa.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, that is another question.

Viscount Tonypandy
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I recently spent a considerable time in South Africa? I visited many shanty towns, as I would call them, the zinc houses where I would not choose to live but where I learnt of the deep divisions among the black people about sanctions. I saw in Khayelitsha, which is a name not unknown to people in South Africa, slogans printed on some of these zinc 584 houses, "Hang the ANC murderers". I saw it. Therefore, ought we not to think twice before we speak with such emphasis about how South Africa should solve its problems?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I am most interested to hear what the noble Viscount says after having visited South Africa and seen it at first hand. I do not wish this morning to go further than the original Answer which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Hatch.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, why is it that successive Ministers from the Government Front Bench pick out an organisation like the Federal Progressive Party and ignore the whole bulk of African leadership? That leadership has expressed itself not only in favour of sanctions but of being prepared to suffer their effects rather than continue in the present circumstances.
Is it not the case that when the South African Government cut off the channels for humanitarian aid to South Africa it was suggested at the meeting of the EC that the British Government might not be averse to the inclusion of sanctions against coal imports into this country? That would be part of the measures to stop the kind of oppression that we have seen over the last few weeks, rather than to continue to utter pious criticisms of apartheid which have had no effect other than to increase the oppression under the apartheid regime.

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, as regards the point which the noble Lord made towards the end of his remarks, we should be willing to implement a ban on imports of coal from South Africa if a consensus could be reached among the Community partners. The reason why Ministers from this Bench have been giving consistent answers is that there is no alternative to working for peaceful change through dialogue and negotiation. Change, we believe, must come from within. We do not think that there can be a quick or easy solution.
We therefore believe that it is right for Her Majesty's Government to continue with contact, pressure, advocacy, persuasion, dialogue and indeed aid.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, if all the questions to which we have had to listen on this subject over the last decade were placed end to end, would that make any difference?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, maybe not. Nonetheless, it is a course around which we go frequently.