Wandsworth Prison: Conditions (Hansard, 19 May 1988)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, a number of matters which were raised in the report require detailed consideration. We shall be writing to the chairman about them.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, while I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, does he acknowledge that when the board described conditions inside Wandsworth prison as insanitary, humiliating, disgusting, degrading and inhuman, it was in fact a condemnation of government policy, especially as it was the second year that they had spoken in such terms? Given that neither the visitors, nor prison officers, nor the Government want a perpetuation of those conditions, why do the Government persist in trying to force more prisoners inside prisons like Wandsworth, thereby making conditions even worse?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the Government do not wish for perpetuation of such conditions. Indeed, 428 an investment of some £5 million has already been undertaken, or is planned, including total refurbishment of the kitchen and the construction of a new reception and staff mess. A pilot scheme will also begin shortly to see whether integral sanitation can be introduced in advance of general refurbishment.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, in view of this most disturbing report, is the Minister able to tell the House when such improvements are likely to be effected'? Is he not in agreement with the theory that if people are treated like animals, they may emerge as animals'? Is not that a sign of the recidivist rates that we have to face?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I cannot tell the noble Lord when the alterations will be completed. However, I can tell him that the Government are most concerned about the state of prisons and that we have involved ourselves in the biggest programme of new building and refurbishment this century. Indeed, since 1978 prison building and redevelopment has been increased by 117 per cent. in real terms. Further, by the mid-1990s the estate will have been virtually doubled with an increase of 22,000 places. That is in addition to the large number of places which by that time will have been refurbished.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, can I ask the Minister whether it is true that difficult prisoners from other prisons are sent to Wandsworth? If so, does that not make the problems even worse?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, there are cases where difficult prisoners are sent to Wandsworth. There are of course the Rule 43 prisoners. The average number in the South-East region is 716. Sixty-seven of those are in a regional unit at Albany Prison, 57 at Grendon and approximately 400 at Wandsworth.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, I hope that the noble Earl will forgive me if I press him on the matter. The report describes insanitary squalour and completely uncivilised conditions. Is he really saying to the House that he cannot tell us at what stage improvements to make such conditions sanitary will be completed'? Is it impossible for his department to give such a date or, at least, an approximate date?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, no; it is not. I have already told the noble Lord that £5 million has been invested, some of which has already been spent. Various schemes are being undertaken, but I cannot tell him when they will be completed.

Lord Hunt
My Lords, can the Minister assure the House that there are no longer any young offenders aged between 17 and 21 (sentenced to youth custody) who, because of the lack of accommodation in youth custody centres, are serving their sentences in Wandsworth or any other of our local prisons in the disgraceful conditions that have been described?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am afraid I cannot give the noble Lord the information he requires. However, I undertake to look into the matter and I shall write to him upon it.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, I return to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, which was specifically about the conditions at Wandsworth prison. The noble Earl has told the House that £5 million is going to be spent. He has been asked one specific question: when is the scheme going to start, and when will it finish? Surely the noble Earl has that information.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, perhaps I did not make myself clear. I said that £5 million has been invested in this connection. Some of the work has been undertaken, or is in the process of being done; in other words, some of it has already been started. If the noble Lord requires a detailed breakdown as to how much has been started, and on what particular projects, I shall of course endeavour to find that out. However, I can only furnish him with the broad generalities.

§ Lord Hutchinson of Lullington
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Chief Inspector's report on the 1986 disturbances and riots in no less than 44 institutions highlighted the impoverished state of the regime in prisons as being a precipitating factor and advocated that minimum standards should be laid down to deal with the situation? Can the Minister tell the House what steps the Government have taken, since the report was published, to lay down those minimum standards to cope with conditions which the inspector described as bordering on the intolerable.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I have explained that the Government are acutely concerned about the state of the prisons, which is why we have undertaken the biggest prison building programme this century. By the mid-1990s there will be 22,000 additional places, which will case the problem in the prisons. In addition, prison refurbishment is taking place. We are at one with the noble Lord in trying to improve the prisons; but he will know as well as I do that it is a difficult problem which needs a vast amount of money spent on it. It cannot be done overnight.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, will the Minister accept that, while we are grateful for the courtesy of his replies, we are apprehensive about their lack of completeness or clarity? Will he please accept that, as I understand it, the House feels it impossible for conditions such as those described at Wandsworth to continue in a civilised country? If he cannot tell us now, will he come back at a later date and tell us when those conditions will at least be turned into civilised conditions at Wandsworth prison?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, perhaps I may give the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, an indication of the problem. For instance, if he wishes to see a total improvement in sanitation that would mean closing down a wing. To close down a wing merely overcrowds everyone else. As he knows, at this time 430 that is a difficult problem. We are dealing with it as best we can and as quickly as possible.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, does the Minister accept that many people appreciate the practice started last year of publishing the reports of boards of visitors? It enables a great many more people than hitherto to know about conditions inside prisons. Bearing in mind that the Wandsworth hoard of visitors reported in similar terms last year and has seen very little happening, does he accept that that not only breeds cynicism but adds to the conditions in which industrial unrest occurs?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I understand the concern felt by the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, over this problem. I am sure he will accept that in undertaking this considerable prison reform and building programme the Government are doing a great deal to improve those conditions. The noble Lord wants to see the conditions altered overnight. With the best will in the world, that cannot be done, but we are doing things as quickly as possible.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, does not the Question underline once again the vital need for the greater use of non-custodial sentences?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I do not believe that that is the correct conclusion. It means that here is a highly regrettable increase in crime. Much of that increase in crime results in prison sentences. Those can only be carried out properly and effectively when the prisons are in a good condition. Far the best course is for us to conduct our lives and our society so that people do not offend and therefore go to prison.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, in the meantime, do not those prison conditions produce more criminals, and more determined criminals—those who have been through these experiences?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, that is one of the problems that we are trying to address by increasing prison building.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, does my noble friend recollect that when, 30 years ago, as chief Opposition spokesman on home affairs, I drew attention to the disgusting state of our prisons, I was treated with almost universal execration by the party then in power?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I remember many of my noble and learned friend's utterances, but not that one. Doubtless it has embedded itself in his mind as well as those of other people.