Air Traffic: Runway Capacity (Hansard, 11 May 1988)

HL Deb 11 May 1988 vol 496 cc1121-3 1121

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked Her Majesty's Government:

§ What action they are taking in the light of the recommendation of the Civil Aviation Authority Committee under the chairmanship of the chairman of the authority that a government lead in securing the provision of additional runway capacity in the South-East is required if British civil aviation is to maintain its position.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport has asked officials to collaborate with the CAA and BAA in reviewing forecast air traffic demand and the capacity required to meet it.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that that is the best Answer to this Question that has been given for five years? However, before he absorbs too much self-congratulation from that, will he bear in mind that an early decision will inevitably be required because of the enormous time-lag between the decision to build a runway and an aeroplane landing on it?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's remark. However, it would be wrong to start with any preconceptions as to the possible results of the study. I therefore think that we shall have to wait and see.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, the Minister is right about not having preconceptions and not taking them for granted. Is he aware that on 18th February the House was told that the initiative on capacity would now rest quite definitely with the CAA and that government would not ignore it as they did in 1984? Is he further aware that the committee recommended that this was a matter of extreme urgency?
On the reply that the Minister has just given to the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, is it likely that the review will give a little more consideration to the development of British civil aviation and a little less to the environmental lobbies?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, it is a little early to know what the review will produce. However, we shall have to take environmental considerations into 1122 account as well as the needs of civil aviation. The difficulty is always to match the two.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the CAA report, CAP 537, published only recently, stresses in Part 2 that increased runway capacity would lead to increased airspace use, the capacity for which is very limited? Part 3 of that report outlines a number of points which require urgent decision. There is no easy answer to providing airspace capacity. That is the important issue on which it says that the Government must take certain decisions.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord is referring to the evidence given by the CAA to the Select Committee in another place which is currently investigating air traffic control safety. Of course airspace capacity is of great importance. There are three factors: runway capacity; airspace capacity; and terminal capacity. All three have to be taken into account.

§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, even the Government must be aware of the criticism emanating from all quarters—from airlines and tour operators alike—of the one runway policy at Gatwick. Perhaps I may ask the Minister a question that I consider is very serious. Are the Government convinced that it is safe to rely on the emergency runway at Gatwick as the only one in use every night while the main runway is being repaired? Am I right to wonder whether only a disaster will move the Government and the BAA to do something about the matter?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, aviation safety is a matter for the CAA. It is satisfied that the use of the emergency runway during runway repairs at night time at Gatwick is satisfactory. On the point about a second runway for Gatwick, that is ruled out until 2019 by an agreement between the BAA and the county council. That is the answer on that point.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, in the light of his last answer, is my noble friend aware that that is flatly contradicted by what has been said by successive Ministers to the effect that the agreement between the BAA and the West Sussex County Council does not bind Her Majesty's Government? Will he very urgently reconsider that answer?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, my answer was that there was an agreement between the BAA and West Sussex County Council until 2019 which ruled out a second runway for Gatwick. I am afraid that that is correct.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that successive Ministers have said that the agreement did not rule it out because it was an undertaking that did not bind the Government? Will he give further thought to this?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, obviously I shall give further thoughts to that matter, but I do not think there is a chance of a second runway at Gatwick, for the time being any way.

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§ Baroness Burton of Coventry
My Lords, is the Minister aware that on several occasions in the House we have been told that the Government do not hold themselves responsible for the agreement that was reached without their knowledge and without their consent? Will he please answer my question, which was a most serious one? Do the Government believe that it is safe at Gatwick, at an airport that size, to rely on an emergency runway in use every night while the main runway is being repaired? Do they consider that that is safe for passengers?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I believe I have already answered that point. Yes, taking the advice of the Civil Aviation Authority, which is responsible for safety matters, we believe that it is safe for Gatwick to use its emergency runway at night.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, I am sorry to return again on this matter, but does the Minister agree that the important issue is not that of runway capacity, to which noble Lords have referred, but of finding a way to give additional runway space if possible, provided that there is sufficient safe airspace capacity? Does he agree that these two issues must be taken into consideration? The safety of airspace is as important as runway space.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. As I said in an earlier answer, airspace capacity is equally important to runway capacity. I assure the House that safety must be paramount in all our considerations.

§ Lord Walston
My Lords, will the noble Lord elucidate for people such as myself who are ignorant of these matters on who is actually responsible for air safety? Is it with the Government that ultimate responsibility lies, or has it been delegated by the Government to the CAA? Does the ultimate responsibility lie with the CAA? If it is the former, have the Government the power and the desire to overrule the CAA if they come to the conclusion that what the CAA does is not compatible with safety?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, civil aviation safety is the statutory responsibility of the Civil Aviation Authority. We are confident that the CAA is well able to fulfil that role.