Unemployment Statistics (Hansard, 29 March 1988)

§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, on 14th January 1988 the number of unemployed claimants who have been unemployed for one year or more in the United Kingdom was nearly 1,101,000. This is of course still far too high, but it is now at its lowest level for over four years.

The Viscount of Oxfuird
My Lords, will my noble friend tell the House how the figures compare with those of a year ago?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, as I indicated in my original Answer, the figures are now going downward progressively, very much as a result of government policy.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, is the Minister aware that recent research indicates that there is substantial depressive illness and even suicide among the long-term unemployed which is much more than in the general population? Should not something be done about that situation?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am not sure that it is right to ascribe the phenomenon which the noble Baroness mentioned as the only cause of the illness to which she refers. Naturally, we should like to bring steadily downwards the number of unemployed people, which is what we are now doing, because of course the effects of unemployment are most undesirable.

Lord Wallace of Coslany
My Lords, is the Minister aware that although, as he states, figures are dropping as a result of government policy, there was a dramatic rise when the present Government took over?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the rise was initiated by the Government of our predecessors. We had first to arrest that steadily increasing trend when we came into office.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, will my noble friend tell the House what progress the Government are making over the provision of opportunities for adult basic education for those who have been out of work for some time, and whether it has proved effective?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, we now have a whole range of training programmes to help the unemployed, including the older unemployed and those who have been unemployed for a longer period. Those training programmes include the provision of basic education where necessary.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the employment of the long-term unemployed, 594 many of whom are unskilled, is greatly helped by the increase in employment of skilled people who fill vacancies, of which there are now a considerable number? In other words, when skilled people obtain jobs, with any luck they are likely to carry unskilled people with them. Therefore, will the Minister consider that where unemployment is falling rapidly, as is fortunately the case in many areas, training money, which is allocated only to people who have been out of work for six months in the case of young people, or for over two years in the case of others, should be lowered to speed up the employment of skilled people and by so doing grab up the employment of the unskilled?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am not sure that I quite understand what the noble Baroness is saying; but, if I catch her correctly, she makes a good point. It is important for all the different categories of unemployed people to have the training that is appropriate to their needs. That is why we attach such importance to the training and the provision of training opportunities for unemployed people. That policy lies at the heart of the recent announcement.

§ Lord Blease
My Lords, the Minister gave the total figures for the United Kingdom. Does he have readily available the percentage figures for England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I do not have those figures in front of me. I shall happily write to the noble Lord with them.

§ Lord Stewart of Fulham
My Lords, the Minister referred to adult basic education. Is he aware that one of the best examples of that education is that provided by the ILEA, and that no one knows what will happen to it?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, a great many other education authorities provide the type of service to which the noble Lord has referred and which I prefer to the ILEA.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the Minister aware that we are gravely apprehensive about the method of calculating the numbers of unemployed? Is he further aware that in the last six months of the Government of my noble friend Lord Callaghan, before the present Government took over, inflation and unemployment were coming down? That can be seen in any statistical research. Should not the Minister read that statistical research and withdraw his earlier statement?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, if the noble Lord believes that he will believe anything.

§ Lord Jay
My Lords, is it the Government's view that when unemployment goes down it is due to the Government, but that when it goes up it is not due to the Government?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am sorry, but I did not hear the noble Lord's question. If he will put it again I shall try to answer it.

§ Lord Jay
My Lords, is it the Government's view that when unemployment goes down it is due to the Government, but that when it goes up it is not due to the Government?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, unemployment was going up steadily when we came into office.

Noble Lords
No!

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, when we came into office it was necessary at once to introduce programmes to deal with that position, but because of the depth of the problem it took a little while for those programmes to take effect.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, in relation to the noble Lord's discourteous answer to my noble friend, is the Minister aware that the unemployment figure in 1978 when Labour left office was 1,278,000? That is less than half the cooked figures which the Government now produce?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, certainly in 1979— not 1978—when we came into office, unemployment was on a rising trend. The figure which the noble Lord has mentioned is perfectly correct. That was the case. Naturally, it took some time for the programmes we had to put into place then, and subsequently, to have an effect on that sharply rising trend. I want to be fair to noble Lords opposite. The sharply rising trend was not confined to the United Kingdom; it was just particularly bad here.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, would not the questions from the opposite side be slightly more impressive if the trade union movement and the Labour Party got their act together over the Ford factory in Dundee instead of losing the lot?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, as I am always accused of being unfair to noble Lords opposite, not only today but on previous occasions, I thought it better to leave that observation to be made from behind me or beside me.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, the questions have taken a distinctly political turn. I should like to ask the noble Lord a completely unbiased question. He belongs to a government who believe in business methods. All good businesses have targets. Would he tell the House what the Government consider to be the figure of unemployment at which they are aiming? What is the desirable figure of unemployment in this country today?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the desirable target which we seek to reach is one substantially below the present level.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, as regards this euphoria about the fall in the unemployment figures which we welcome—that is the fall in the figures, not the euphoria—would the noble Lord not lose sight of the fact that in the North-East of England we still have up to 40 per cent. male unemployment?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am not sure whether that figure is exactly accurate. I agree that there are parts of the United Kingdom where unemployment is still far too high. That is what I said in the original Answer.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the noble Lord says that the figure for the long-term unemployed is falling. Is it not the case that the figure for long-term unemployment among those under 25 is rising steeply?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I do not believe that that is the case. But it is a detail within the statistics that I shall check.