Drivers: Roadside Surveys (Hansard, 28 March 1988)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, more than 300,000 breath tests arc given by the police each year resulting in more than 100,000 convictions. There will be no amnesty for drivers whom the police suspect, in the course of the forthcoming roadside surveys, of being over the legal limit. The survey interviews will be undertaken by Department of Transport officials. The role of the police will be to stop cars and direct drivers to the interview area. If in doing so they suspect a driver of having committed a drink driving or any other offence, they will deal with that offence in the normal way.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer and for clarifying the rather confused statements that have appeared in the newspapers. Am I right in thinking that the widely reported statement that there will be no prosecution of motorists who are found to be over the limit is quite wrong?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the newspapers have given somewhat confused reports on that point. In the case of somebody who has been taken into the interview area, if the police have not picked out the fact that the driver is over the limit a Department of Transport official will invite him to rest until he is legally able to continue the journey. In extreme cases officials will offer a driver a lift to a destination if the passenger is unable to drive. I should make it quite clear that if, in spite of being over the limit or appearing to be over the limit, the driver insists on continuing, he will be warned of the consequences and referred to the police at the entrance to the survey area.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, the question of what happens to the driver after he has been stopped is irrelevant. The Question relates to the offence which he has already committed before he is stopped. What I am seeking to find out is whether, if that information comes to light either to the police or 438 to the Ministry of Transport inspector, he will be considered for prosecution.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, if that information comes to the attention of the police as they stop a driver to direct him into the interview area, he will be subject to the normal rules and will be prosecuted if he is found to be over the limit. If it comes to the attention of the Department of Transport officials, what I described in my previous answer will happen.

§ Lord Brougham and Vaux
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that RoSPA is fully behind Her Majesty's Government on this proposal? Will he also squash any press statements which suggest that this is an amnesty, which it is not?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for telling the House the view of RoSPA. That view is also shared by the police, who also are in favour of the survey.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, are we not in a quandary here? We have what could be a dangerous police precedent but at the same time a survey that will provide some valuable information. Can the Minister say what will happen if the Transport and Road Research Laboratory personnel carrying out the test find that a person is over the limit?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I agree that the survey is valuable and we hope that it will produce valuable data on which we can base our future counter-measures against drink driving. That is the whole point of the survey. As all noble Lords will be aware, we are very anti-drink driving and the survey will increase our knowledge of the subject.
With regard to the noble Lord's second supplementary question, if someone is found to be over the limit he will be invited to rest until he is legally able to continue the journey. If he tries to leave he will be referred to the police. I should also emphasise that the test is voluntary and a driver can refuse to take part in the survey.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, is not the fact of the matter that the offence arises if a suspect is stopped by a police constable in uniform? Therefore is not what my noble friend has described practically the only way in which such a survey can legally be carried out?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am sure that my noble and learned friend knows much more about the legal aspects of the matter than I do. However, it seems to me that the purpose behind the survey is valuable, and if something can be learned from it, it is worth doing.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us are becoming bewildered? We have all believed that it is our duty as citizens to assist the police in the apprehension of people engaged in criminal behaviour. From what the Minister has said it seems that the Department of Transport officials do not feel so obliged. Can the noble Lord clarify the matter further?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, there is little I can add to what I have already said. If the police find, or suspect, that a driver is over the limit on being stopped to go into the survey area, then the normal course of the law will take place. On the other hand, a driver who has stopped in the survey area, who has been questioned about his drinking habits by Department of Transport officials and who is then found to be over the limit, will be allowed to remain there until he is fit to leave. However, should he try to leave the area while still over the limit, then of course he will be handed over to the police.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, will that not mean that during the period in this area of experimentation, and in the circumstances which have been described, the motorist, although over the limit, is immune from prosecution? If that is so, it is a most extraordinary state of affairs, is it not?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, no. That is not the case; the motorist is not immune from prosecution. Should the police, on stopping him and inviting him to go into the survey area, suspect or find that he is over the limit, then he will be prosecuted in the ordinary way.

§ Lord Elwyn-Jones
My Lords, I was referring to the period of rest that has been mentioned, which, no doubt, will be a treat for the gentleman concerned. After he has rested and it is then found that he is over the limit, what will happen?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, if the driver attempts to leave the survey area before he is so sufficiently rested to have rid himself of the excess alcohol, he will be referred to the police who will no doubt do what they normally do in such circumstances.

§ Lord Carr of Hadley
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that he will give further and careful consideration to the matter? I have no doubt that the intentions are extremely good. However, sometimes good intentions pave the road to an unacceptable place. Like a one-time Permanent Under-Secretary to the Home Office, I, as a one-time Home Secretary, am somewhat puzzled and concerned by what I have heard.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I hope that after today my noble friend—and other noble Lords—will at any rate be slightly better informed of what we are actually trying to do, following some of the reports that have appeared in the press. However, I emphasise that this scheme is an experiment.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, may I support the noble Lord, Lord Carr of Hadley, in what he has said?

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, all right; I shall not do so. I was just trying to be gentle and gracious. In view of the bewilderment in the House about the proposals, can the Minister say what will happen when millions of ordinary people outside try to interpret these 440 proposals and read the report of our proceedings in Hansard? Is not the right answer now to let us have just one police force, reinforced if necessary with additional policemen, and to re-think the entire scheme?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I have already said this is an experiment to try to increase our knowledge on the subject. I think all noble Lords will agree that drink-driving is a serious problem and we should therefore do all we can to increase our knowledge of the matter. That is the purpose of the experiment. And it is an experiment. We have only one police force. If a policeman suspects someone of being over the limit he will carry out what is the normal procedure in such circumstances.

§ Lord St. John of Fawsley
My Lords, with reference to what my noble friend Lord Carr of Hadley said about good intentions leading to an unmentionable place, is it not true that the Government are leading people into a perfectly mentionable place—hitherto unknown to the law—namely, limbo? Does that action not have grave legal consequences since it is an innovation unknown to our common law?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not unfortunately a lawyer. However, I am sure that those who devised the experiment were well advised by lawyers. I do not believe that there is anything taking place which is against the law.

§ Baroness Fisher of Rednal
My Lords, why is it important for the Government to run an experiment or carry out research when drunken drivers come before the courts every day of the week? They appear before the courts because the police have brought them there and give evidence in that connection. Could the Government not have undertaken such research from the comments of those people who have already been convicted? In that way we would not find ourselves in the muddle that we are talking about. Can the noble Lord tell the House where those people are going to rest if, for example, they are caught on the motorway? I thought it was another offence to rest on the hard shoulder.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I can assure the House that the tests will take place at carefully selected sites which I do not think will include motorways. In answer to the noble Baroness's original question, most research is based on data that we gain from drivers who have been involved in accidents. The work we are currently undertaking will complement that by providing data from a sample of the general driving population. We shall be looking to find out about personal characteristics, attitudes to drinking and driving and drinking habits.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, may I ask the Government to think again?

Noble Lords
Next Question!

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, I do not want to prolong the matter—

Noble Lords
Next Question!