§ Baroness Burton of Coventry asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether they will make a statement on the main items discussed at the meeting of the European Community Transport Ministers' Council on 14th and 15th March, including any decisions taken and whether any items on the agenda were not discussed.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)My Lords, the main items discussed were: the width of refrigerated vehicles; road haulage tariffs; procedures for checking recording equipment used in road haulage vehicles; and road haulage drivers' hours and related matters; charging transport infrastructure costs to heavy goods vehicles; access to the market for the carriage of goods by road between member states; and the weights and dimensions of commercial vehicles. Reports and statements included one by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport pressing for progress on shipping cabotage. Two secondary items were not taken.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, is the Minister aware that it seems quite incredible that air matters were not discussed at this meeting? Is he further aware that it is difficult to comprehend that no time, however inadequate it might be, was found to discuss competition rules, fares, capacity or access? Can he tell the House whether these matters will be raised at the informal meeting of the Council on 25th and 26th April, or do we have to wait until 20th and 21st June?
Can I furthermore ask him whether he recalls telling the House on 3rd March that he understood that Air Europe would be filing its Paris application shortly? Has that been done?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, there are other transport matters that have to be discussed by the Transport Ministers' Council. Aviation has been discussed extensively over the last few years. We finally had agreement to the package only last December. While we still remain committed to making further progress, and we have a commitment from the Transport Ministers' Council to make progress by 1990, other matters sometimes have to be dealt with.
Whether further discussions on aviation will take place at either the informal meeting in April or at the June Council I cannot yet say. It is of course up to the presidency to formulate the agenda.
1248 On Air Europe's application, that is not a matter for the Transport Ministers' Council. However, I understand that Air Europe is still considering its fare structure for the Paris route.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I am glad that the Minister mentioned the word "package". Is he aware that the four items I mentioned that were not discussed are all included in, and indeed are the main part of, that package?
Perhaps I may ask about one other matter that I hope will be of interest to the House. Is the Minister aware that this morning I spent a long time with his department discussing whether the point concerning any items on the agenda not being discussed could be answered as they were in my Question? I was told that it was not possible to give any response to that because to do so would have extended the length of the Answer beyond 100 words. Is he further aware that I told whoever I was talking to that I was not prepared to be bound by such Civil Service red tape, if he was, and if the matter was not put right I should raise it in the House today. May I ask the Minister—
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, may I ask the Minister—
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, on a point of order, did not the House only the other day pass a resolution supporting the Procedure Committee in saying that supplementary questions should be limited to two points only?
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, I am on the continuation of my second point. Perhaps I may ask the Minister this. In connection with the last part of his remarks today which stated that two secondary items were not discussed, why would it have been longer to say that two items, X and Y, were not discussed?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, we have a convention that replies should not be longer than 100 words, I think it is, in order not to take up too much of your Lordships' time at Question Time. However, I am happy to tell the noble Baroness and the House the two secondary items that were not taken. When the House hears them, perhaps it will not feel that they were of such great importance.
They were the questions raised by the Belgian, Irish and Netherlands delegations concerning the Community quota for carriage of goods by road between member states. They were concerned with quota allocation among member states. There was also a Commission report on overcapacity in inland waters. The Commission is not yet ready to report.
§ Lord Taylor of BlackburnMy Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister who made the rule that an Answer should be no more than 100 words.
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, the House made the rule, I understand, but I merely try to adapt to the wishes of the House.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, in the light of what the Minister said about other important matters that the Transport Ministers' Council has to consider, perhaps I may ask him two questions in his very important role as Minister responsible for shipping. In a very detailed Written Answer on 3rd March his right honourable friend the Secretary of State stated that last October he wrote to the shipping ministers of 10 other European countries proposing co-operation on ferry safety. Can I ask whether that subject was intended to be considered at the last meeting of the Transport Ministers' Council or whether there was any intention that it should be on the agenda of a very early meeting?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, we are involved in discussions with other European countries on ferry safety. That extends beyond our EC partners. It involves two countries which are not members of the EC. It is not therefore a matter that was on the agenda for the Transport Ministers' Council, but I can assure the noble Lord that we are still talking with those European countries that have ferry services between ourselves and them.
Viscount St. DavidsMy Lords, perhaps I may ask one question on an issue that is raised in the main Question. Can the noble Lord expand his Answer on the subject of cabotage? The present position seems to be a long way from that which is necessary if Europe is to be united. Do we not need to progress much further?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I could not agree more with the noble Viscount. The Government's views on this are quite straightforward. My right honourable friend notified his colleagues of his intention to seek an enabling power in the Merchant Shipping Bill currently before another place to introduce a test of establishment for shipping companies which engage in cabotage trades in United Kingdom coastal waters. He also urged colleagues to find a formula for the liberalisation of cabotage trades so that agreement could be reached on this subject at a subsequent council. I understand that considerable part of the June Council will be devoted to this and other outstanding shipping matters.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, would it not be possible to send the noble Baroness, Lady Burton, to Strasbourg? She would drive them all frantic!
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I do not think that I can give any undertaking on that. It is not a matter for me.
§ Baroness Burton of CoventryMy Lords, is the Minister aware that it will be within the recollection of the House that a great many ministerial answers, I am sure for most excellent reasons, are considerably longer than 100 words? Is he further aware that although I ask a lot of questions they are concise and call for only a concise answer?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, that is the point. I try to give a concise answer. If I expanded into matters I am asked to go on to deal with, my answers certainly would not be concise.