Afghanistan (Hansard, 2 March 1988)

§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Lord Trefgarne)
My Lords, there are some 115,000 Soviet troops in Afghanistan. We welcome Mr. Gorbachev's announcement of a date for their withdrawal. In their statement of 25th February, the Twelve again called for total and irrevocable withdrawal of Soviet troops in the course of 1988.

§ Lord Gridley
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend the Minister for that Answer, especially as contrary reports keep appearing in the international press. Does not my noble friend agree that when total departure of the Soviet forces has taken place from Afghanistan a most dangerous vacuum would be created if no stable government were established at the time? The presence of seven heavily armed groups who could exhibit a desire to start action against those forces with whom they have been in conflict during the Soviet occupation must be considered. Finally, has consideration been given to the presence of a United Nations peacekeeping force, should that be necessary?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I certainly agree that we would very much like to see a stable government established in Afghanistan at the time of the welcome withdrawal of Soviet troops. However, it is equally important that that government should be one which the people of Afghanistan have chosen for themselves.
As for the possibility of United Nations participation later, that would present considerable difficulties and I am not yet persuaded that there is need for such a presence, provided the Soviet withdrawal goes as we hope.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, perhaps I may ask the Minister whether or not the Government would be prepared to accept that the endeavours of Mr. Gorbachev ought to he matched by the USA and Pakistan.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, there are many discussions taking place, as I am sure the noble Lord will be aware. While the announcement of withdrawal by the Soviet Union is welcome, as I have said, we must remember that the Soviet Union created this problem. It was Soviet Union troops who arrived unannounced and uninvited in Afghanistan 174 all those years ago, so the onus is on the Soviet Union to provide a solution that facilitates withdrawal.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, was this problem discussed with Mr. Shultz when he spoke to the Prime Minister yesterday? Can the Minister say whether the composition of the interim government is regarded by Her Majesty's Government as an important factor; or do the Government agree with Mr. Shultz that that should not stand in the way of a withdrawal of Soviet troops and the signing of an agreement in Geneva?
Is the noble Lord aware that we are concerned, as he is, about possible instability in Afghanistan following the withdrawal of Soviet troops and that we support the idea of a United Nations presence during the interim period?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I can confirm that there have been a number of exchanges between the relevant governments, including the United Kingdom Government, on this matter. As for finding a way for the future, we think that it would be highly desirable to have a stable government in place at the time of the Soviet withdrawal. However, as I said earlier, that must be a government which commands the respect and has the acceptance of the Afghan people. One must be careful not to place unnecessary roadblocks in the way of a Soviet withdrawal, which we regard as the first priority.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, we all welcome the recent statement of Mr. Gorbachev about withdrawing the troops. However, does the Minister agree that this is a grim reminder that 115,000 Soviet troops have been in Afghanistan, unasked and uninvited? It is a lesson to many people, including Members of this House, that we must watch out what we do with the Soviets.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, the noble Lord makes a serious point, if I may say so. It is certainly the case that Soviet Union troops arrived in Afghanistan uninvited and unrequired, in a way which commanded the condemnation of the entire world. It is therefore now the Soviet Union's responsibility to facilitate the withdrawal of its troops, if I may put it that way. We have to be careful in the current climate of thinking that everything has changed in the Soviet Union. While some things have changed to a welcome extent, certainly not everything has changed.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, do the Government agree that the time to stop arming and assisting the rebels is now? If so, will they do what they can to back Mr. Shultz in his apparent view that that is the case and in his efforts to detach United States policy from its former position that the time to stop arming the rebels is when the last Russian has gone?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I look forward to the day when the people of Afghanistan can settle their affairs free from intervention of any kind, wherever it may come from. Since the Soviet invasion of' that country seven years ago, the Afghan people have been putting up what I consider to be a very brave 175 resistance to the unwanted intervention of the Soviet Union. I am glad that they were able to find their weapons from somewhere.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, it may not be very important to us, but we have to realise that in point of fact the Soviet Union was invited into Afghanistan by a communist government which claimed at the time that it was threatened by Pakistan. Even if we do not accept them, let us acknowledge the facts. We should also know what type of government is to be put in place in order for us to deal with it.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, as I recall it, the alleged invitation to the Soviet Union was issued by a chap who turned out to have been killed two days previously.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House what is the estimate of the number of Afghans who have been killed since the Soviet act of aggression took place?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I do not have that number in front of me. I am aware that about 8 million Afghans altogether are refugees of one kind or another from the hostility which has been vented on their country.

The Earl of Selkirk
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that the conduct of the Russian government in Afghanistan is a fundamental test of its integrity? Can the Minister say whether any preliminary steps have been taken to deal with what I agree is a difficult task; namely, the withdrawal of 100,000 troops?

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, I am not aware that any withdrawals have yet commenced. My noble friend says that this is a test of Soviet integrity. That integrity—if that is what it was—was shattered the day that they walked into Afghanistan.