Homelessness (Hansard, 1 March 1988)

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, in that debate I gave details of the Government's measures to combat homelessness. The situation is being kept under review.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am terribly disappointed with that reply? Is he aware that there are now more people than ever living in temporary accommodation, and the numbers are still growing? Is he aware that there are now more than 11,000 families in bed-and-breakfast accommodation, and that figure is still growing? When can the Minister inform this House that the Government will be taking measures so that figures such as that, which are a terrible stain on our character as a nation, will start to move downwards?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, as I said in the debate, the Government have very high hopes for the Housing Bill, which will be coming before your Lordships' House in the very near future. I also remind your Lordships that there are nearly three times the number of empty council dwellings as there are people in bed-and-breakfast accommodation.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, in reply to that answer, perhaps I may ask this question. Is the Minister aware that every housing agency that deals with people who are affected by that Bill is of the opinion that there is nothing at all in the present Housing Bill which will do one whit whatsoever to alleviate the homeless in this country, and that the Bill is not about homeless people and it does nothing at all for them?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I regret ever having to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Dean, but I must do so on this occasion because we strongly believe that the Housing Bill will revitalise the housing market. I give only one figure to indicate that it is very extraordinary that in this country only 8 per cent. Of dwellings are in the private rented sector whereas in France it is 36 per cent., West Germany 43 per cent., and the United States 32 per cent. Therefore, we have the highest hopes that those figures will be the greatest contributor to the reduction of homelessness in this country.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned voids in local authority properties. Can he say what the Government are doing to encourage and ensure better standards of housing management and a quicker filling of voids? Perhaps I may turn to the single homeless situation. Has the noble Lord become aware that single homeless people are now taking refuge at night in British Rail railway carriages beyond Victoria, having been moved on from the arches below Charing Cross? What hope of improvement can he offer us in that regard?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, two examples of the Government's action for the single homeless are the Housing Corporation's programme of hostels and shared housing in which 14,700 places have been approved since April 1981, and the Housing Corporation's mixed funding programme which provides shared accommodation for young job movers for which the sum of £15 million has been allocated for 1987–88.
With regard to the matter of management, one example is that some authorities are lagging behind in the sale of council houses under the right-to-buy scheme, though this would bring in more capital receipts which they could use without any restriction on phasing for capitalised repairs to their property. An example is Southwark where if they did more under the right-to-buy programme then they would be able to reduce their 1st April 1987 figure of 590 properties awaiting major repairs.

§ Lord Graham of Edmonton
My Lords, why have the Government continued to cut the housing investment programme year after year, particularly of London councils? Why do they continue to acquiesce in the misuse of public money in cramming thousands of families into bed-and-breakfast hotels which are very unsatisfactory? Why is it tolerated that in London streets every night there are more than 60,000 single homeless people and in London there is one school where 105 out of 150 pupils are homeless? What will the Minister do about that?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the responsibility is that of the local authorities and not of the Government. I remind the noble Lord that it is interesting to note the differences where you find Brent and Camden resorting to bed-and-breakfast accommodation on a very large scale and Greenwich not doing so.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is no good saying that this is purely a local authority matter when it is known that some local authorities are not doing their job? In reality there are hundreds and hundreds of empty flats and yet the same boroughs have homeless families. What is the Minister doing about that? He cannot turn his back on it.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, for his question; but it is not the Government's policy to interfere in local government.

§ Baroness Faithfull
My Lords, taking up a point raised by the noble Lords, Lord Mellish and Lord Hylton, does the Minister not agree that the 91 management of housing is very poor in some areas inasmuch as £20 million is owed in rent in this country?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for drawing that straightforward fact to the attention of your Lordships. If that £20 million had been collected, that would no doubt help to alleviate the problem.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his statement that the Government no longer desire to interfere with local government will bring great relief to many of those authorities who thought that they might have to suffer what ILEA and other authorities have suffered? Is he also aware that whether it is a question of single or family homeless, it is a blight on our nation? What irritates and annoys many people is the fact that there is a vast amount of single and family homelessness, and yet at the same time we have a ridiculous level of unemployment in the construction industry.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, my brief is not for employment in the construction industry. However, I was under the impression, on a Question I answered last week, that unemployment was falling substantially. Of course, all of us are concerned about homelessness, and as I said earlier the Government are doing something about it. The fact that noble Lords opposite may not like the Housing Bill, or disagree with it, does not mean that we are not forging ahead with what we believe is good intention and integrity.

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that many feel that the point raised earlier by some noble Lords, even within this Question, pertains not to hundreds but to thousands and thousands of empty dwellings throughout the country —

A noble Lord
In the private sector.

§ Lord Bellwin
—both in the private sector and the public sector? However, it is in the public sector where the Government have an influential role to play even though they are not deciding the priorities for local authorities. Nevertheless, is the Minister aware that unless there is a willingness by local authorities to give priority to actually doing something about those thousands of empty dwellings, then to raise matters of homelessness simply will not do?

Noble Lords
Question!

§ Lord Bellwin
My Lords, it is no good a noble Lord opposite waving his hands; this is a very genuine part of the problem.

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Bellwin is absolutely correct. There are, whether noble Lords opposite like it or not, 112,000 empty properties owned by councils. My noble friend's very wise point—I mentioned this earlier in the case of Southwark—is that if some councils used the opportunities available to them to raise money they could reduce these lists.

§ Lord Bottomley
My Lords, does the Minister not agree that his comment that it is not government policy to interfere with local government was unfortunate? Does not the Leader of the House agree that the comment is misleading to the House?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, it is not the business of the Government to interfere in local government. I can only say that again.

§ Baroness Fisher of Rednal
My Lords, can the noble Lord give up-to-date figures for all the properties used by Her Majesty's forces that are lying empty?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords, the level of empty Ministry of Defence housing is quite high, as I said in answer to a Question earlier this year. However, the circumstances of many Ministry of Defence properties are very different. In most cases they are nowhere near the inner cities, where the largest part of this problem exists.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, bearing in mind that in two replies the Minister has indicated that local authorities have the salvation in their own hands if they use more of their capital resources to deal with the problem, will the noble Lord go straight from this Chamber and endeavour to persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to release more of the huge sums of the authorities' own money which is still withheld from them and which they want to use for this purpose?

§ Lord Hesketh
My Lords. I certainly did not say that the sole cure for the problem of homelessness was held by the local authorities: far from it. That is why I laid great emphasis on the Housing Bill which is shortly to come before this House.