HL Deb 27 June 1988 vol 498 cc1132-3

2.38 p.m.

Lord Kennet asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether the ticket barriers now being introduced on the London Underground, and their release mechanism, have been explicitly approved by the fire service, and if not whether that is compatible with the licence under which the Underground is operated.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)

My Lords, neither the new ticket barriers on the London Underground nor their release mechanism have been explicitly approved by the fire service. Inspecting officers of railways, representing my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Transport, have been consulted during the introduction of these barriers. They are satisfied that arrangements for the emergency opening of the gates are satisfactory. London Underground Limited is statutorily responsible for the safe running of its railway and no question of compatibility with a licence arises.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, can the Minister tell the House the answer to this question? As I understand from the press, there is to be an arrangement whereby all the doors can be opened at the press of a single button if there is a crisis or panic. What happens if the fire, for instance, or accident occurs in the circuit which operates that release mechanism?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, there will be emergency plungers in the ticket office, in the ticket hall control console and also in some instances in the station's operations room. There will also be a key switch which acts in a similar manner in the pedestal of the disabled persons' gate. Therefore, there will be a number of different places from which these barriers can be opened. The barriers themselves operate on a fail-safe principle in that they are held closed by air pressure operating against a spring. If, therefore, there is a failure in the system they will naturally fall into the open position.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, can my noble friend say what guarantee there is—particularly in the light of recent experience—that in the event of a serious emergency by way of fire a competent person will be available to operate the switches?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, as I have said, switches will be available in the ticket office and in other places. There should always be a competent person available in such a position to operate the emergency switch.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, is that a satisfactory answer to the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter? The Minister says that there should always be a competent person available. Does he appreciate that we need a guarantee that there will be? In many cases the booking office is closed, so that is one point where no one will be available. Does the noble Lord appreciate that we need a guarantee that trained staff will always be available near one or other of the special releases?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, obviously I shall draw the remarks made by your Lordships to the attention of the appropriate authorities. In general terms, the ticket offices are always manned at the stations concerned. The barriers are being installed only in the central area and not at outlying stations. It is my understanding that ticket offices at those stations are always manned.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the ticket office in the station adjoining the Palace of Westminster is often closed? When he says that there should be a competent person available, can he tell the House what steps are being taken, particularly in the light of recent experience of London Underground, to ensure that there is?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I do not have the details of the steps that will be taken to ensure that there is somebody present but my understanding is that there will always be somebody, if not in the ticket office at least at the ticket hall control console or at one of the other points at which the switch can be operated.

Lord Jay

My Lords, is the Minister aware that London Transport is acutely undermanned at the present time and that in those circumstances the chance would be about 50–50 whether or not there was someone near those switches?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, essentially it is for London Regional Transport to decide on the staffing levels needed to meet its statutory safety duty. One advantage of the new automatic ticketing is that it releases more staff for supervision and patrol on the stations.

Lord Kennet

My Lords, do the Government go so far as to endorse the general principle that there is no public safety measure like a trained person or several trained people in the right place all the time?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, that must be true.