§ 2.55 p.m.
§ Lord Orr-Ewing asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ What they are doing to alert owners and managers of buildings in public use to the measures necessary for the prevention of environmental health hazards such as Legionnaires disease.
The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (The Earl of Caithness)My Lords, the reports of the committee of inquiry into the outbreak of Legionnaires disease at Stafford in 1985 produced a range of recommendations aimed at all those, including the Government, who are responsible for the design, commissioning, operation and maintenance of buildings and building services. The Government, in particular through the health departments, the Health and Safety Executive and the Property Services Agency, have taken appropriate action in accordance with those recommendations.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that tests undertaken in 1987 by independent companies showed that some public buildings and even hospitals had air conditioning systems which were in the most alarming state? Is he satisfied that there is enough urgency in putting the matter right and that tests are carried out regularly at given intervals? Perhaps he can also tell the House how often those tests are carried out in order to ensure that there is an improvement in the air conditioning and consequently the safety of people in such buildings.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I assure my noble friend that the Government take the matter seriously. The Department of Health and Social Security has issued new guidance about the inspection and maintenance of hospitals with cooling tower systems. In the near future, that will be incorporated into a wider code covering hot and cold water systems. The Health and Safety Executive issued a guidance note on the nature and prevention of Legionnaire's disease in January 1987. The Property Services Agency has 758 also taken action. Only this morning I heard from the local authority associations that they were taking action as well.
§ Baroness SeearMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the air conditioning systems on 125-trains are extremely unsatisfactory in that whenever the trains brake, the most appalling smell results? Some of us feel very much under the weather if we travel on those trains for more than a hour and a half. I have no idea whether that contributes to Legionnaire's disease. However, I am sure that it contributes to a great many other unpleasant conditions.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I have noticed that too. I do not think that it is relevant to the Question on the Order Paper. However, I note the interesting comments made by the noble Baroness.
§ Lord EnnalsMy Lords, can the Minister give an assurance that the funding problems of the Health and Safety Executive, which have been given some publicity, do not mean that it is unable to give inspections which are as frequent as it would like? Has the executive indicated that the quality of its work is somewhat reduced as a result of funding difficulties?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I shall draw the comments of the noble Lord to the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, in my view the BBC is by no means underfunded. It wastes a great deal of money on overpaying second-rate presenters and allowing them to operate within the organisation on a private basis. Is it not a fact that the air conditioning system at the BBC was found to be wholly out of order simply because the slats needed replacing? As a result of the non-replacement of those slats—it would not have happened if the system had been properly inspected and maintained—two people died. Why did the BBC take no notice of the Minister's guidance and frequent reminders about the need to maintain such systems properly?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I believe that the noble Lord will not expect me to answer his questions in detail. Inquiries into the BBC outbreak are continuing: one by the BBC and the other by Westminster City Council. They are expected to report in September. I believe that it would be wrong for me to comment on the matter at this stage.
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonYes, my Lords, but guidance and advice are available and notice should be taken by other firms to prevent further deaths from the same cause.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I repeat that guidance has been issued and that the Health and Safety Executive is also looking into the outbreak through its normal procedures. If necessary, it will update the guidance which it produced in January 1987.
§ Baroness Masham of IltonMy Lords, may I ask my noble kinsman if legionella can be found in the heads of sprays in bathrooms? If so, how best should they be disinfected?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I understand that the disease, and indeed Pontiac fever, can be caught from the evaporation of water. It is important that such installations as air conditioning systems and water supplies are maintained to a proper standard.
§ Lord Orr-EwingMy Lords, could my noble friend come back to the question that I asked? How often are such installations to be inspected? If our cars have to be inspected every year for safety is it unrealistic to think that the air-conditioning systems of public buildings, and particularly hospitals, should equally be regularly and carefully inspected once a year?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I am sure that there is nobody involved in health or responsible for public or private buildings who is not aware of the potentially disastrous consequences of Legionnaire's disease, and I am sure that they ensure that their maintenance is to a high standard.
§ Baroness Fisher of RednalMy Lords, can the Minister give an assurance that the Houses of Parliament are inspected every 12 months in the way he has indicated?